Women Leaders in Tech

Welcome to another episode of Ears Over Beers, your favorite digital and social evangelist podcast with your industry veteran hosts, Chris Stetssell. This podcast starts now.

Alright. Alright. Welcome to another Peers Over Beers. My name is Chris Stetzel, and I have 3 special guests today. Go, Elizabeth.

I'm Elizabeth Kinsey.

Nicole.

I'm Nicole Sanders.

I'm Allison Boudreaux.

Oh, this is awesome. So today's topic, and I'm really excited about this topic, is women in leadership or women leadership, in tech. Women leaders in tech. I'll probably cut that, Pete. So I've got a lot of questions here that I wanna ask, these 3 ladies.

And, now I'm gonna start with Elizabeth. Are you ready for the first question?

I am ready, Chris.

Alright. So introduce yourself by telling us, why you decided on a career in tech and how you found your way into your role. And then tell us a little bit about your aspirations.

Alright. So my name is Elizabeth Kinsey. My pronouns are she, her, and hers. I am the director of community at Slack, and I decided on a career in tech because it had the best health insurance. I'm, like, legit not lying about this because I looked at all of the things that I could do with my limited, my limited world when I was trying to figure out what I wanna do.

I was like, you know what I don't wanna do? I don't wanna worry about my health care. And so the it it and it kind of found me. So the real story is that I was working in retail and I needed health insurance and I was applying for literally any job. And, I ended up being an office coordinator in a in a tech company.

And, from there just ended up taking every opportunity that I could to continue to move ahead and went to go work for a startup. And that was a real that was probably, like, the first time that I was making software instead of just selling software, and that was incredibly fascinating to me. And the health care was still top notch. And so I just kept, you know, going with that. I think in terms of, like, how I found my way to my role at Slack, it was really just watching product being built and being introduced to so many developers and learning so much about that world and finding it incredibly fascinating how people built relationships and careers and their identities around some of these things that they were doing for work and seeing the positive impact that that had.

And so when Slack was looking for a developer marketing community person, I was like, sign me up. And, I'd say in terms of aspirations, you know, I just wanna live a good life and make a good impact on people and not do harm. And, you know, I'm very touchy feeling that way, but I also wanna make space for it to be very usual to have a bunch of women at the table and no one to be like, oh my god. There's 1 woman here or 2 women here. Like, nobody says that about men.

And so just creating a space where it's not just my turn at the table. It's all of us that need to be there. You know, that's one of my biggest aspirations and what I wanna do. Plus, I wanna make everybody use and love Slack. So that's it.

That's a lot.

That's great. That's great. That was really great. Nicole?

Yeah. I'm, Nicole Saunders, director of community at Zendesk. How did I decide on a career in tech? I don't think I set out for it originally. I was one of those people that, like, I didn't think I was very good at math.

I liked science, but, like, I really wanted to be a writer. And so the very short, abridged version of my career is I started as a freelance writer, When all the magazines moved online, I had to start learning how to use social media to promote myself. That got me into doing all sorts of cool things with social media and starting to build online communities in social spaces. And that was about when I started thinking of myself as a community manager. And I did freelance and did contract work for a long time, and I kept getting clients that were tech start ups.

And I really liked the innovation. I really liked the creativity. I loved being at the beginning stages of a business. And so I worked in tech startups ups for about 10 years doing various kinds of marketing and community management. And then eventually got myself out to Silicon Valley, and then was there for a few years, and then I met my now husband, and I was moving back to Wisconsin to find out if he was gonna become my husband or not.

And I was like, there's no tech companies in Wisconsin, guess I better go get an MBA. And it turned out that Zendesk has a major office here in Madison, sort of at random, and they happened to be hiring a community manager the month I was moving back home. So I applied, I got the job, and I've been leading, community at Zendesk ever since and just really building my my empire of community management in that space. So it was one of those things that was really serendipitous, but it's worked out really well, and I love being in the tech space. I think it's so cool to be around so many creative people, and it's such an exciting field.

As far as my aspirations, you know, first and foremost, it's continuing to mature the community management industry and continuing to build leadership. I've been with is often part of the tip of the spear at Zendesk as far as community. When I started, there's just me and another person, and we were support agents in the community. And I've expanded my team and grown up to the director level, and I hope eventually we'll we'll hit a VP level at some point. So that's the first part.

And then like Elizabeth, it's really helping get more women into leadership. I've learned a lot on my journey. I like sharing that. I like mentoring it, and I wanna see us create more spaces, for women at these more senior levels.

That's great. Amazing. Allison.

So, I'm Allison Boudreaux, and I am director of digital programs, education, and community at a company called Calix. We are one of the largest telco, software providers that nobody sort of is what my CEO likes to say. And I also fell into tech on accident. I was working for a healthware soft software health care software company, and the entire marketing department was let go, and I was 38 weeks pregnant.

So I

went into full on panic of, like, apply, apply, apply, apply, and this company named Calix called me back, for an events management role. And I said, yes. Yes. Yes. And I've been here now for 12 years and worked my way through different marketing communications roles, leading demand generation teams.

And we started customer success, and the leader said, would you come over here and try to, like, make sense of our community and education teams? And so I took a jump and said, yeah. So it's I've been very lucky. Chris and I have talked about it. I've had multiple careers inside the same company, and I love the community space, and I love customer enablement.

And so I'm really excited to be able to build my team. I my aspirations are helping people through their careers understand that it's not a lateral journey. I have not had a lateral journey. Many people on my team have not, and I'm like, just try it. Just jump.

Just have faith. And I've been lucky enough to have mentors who have helped me guide my way through my career that way, so I wanna be that kind of mentor to the people on my team as well. And like the other ladies on this call, helping representation at the executive level and at the VP level as well, is key to me and what I fight for every day. I'm on the women at Calix committee, helping to talk about hard conversations that people kinda shy away from sometimes in the business world. And so I'm hoping to have more of those conversations more openly openly and make other people comfortable to do the same.

I like that. Wow. This has been great so far. And I think I'm gonna get into some harder questions, so which I'm very interested to hear. So when you think of, like, CEOs and especially in the tech, I'm not saying you don't see any women CEOs, you know, but why is there not so many CEO leaders or, you know, kind of women in those CEO roles?

And and and and anybody can take that.

The patriarchy. No. I'm not I really I really had a simple answer. I'm not kidding, but No. I mean, it's it's true.

I think part of it is that there's still a little bit it's still a little bit trickier for women who oftentimes still have to bear the brunt of raising kids and taking care of the household. And I see a lot of women who get into mid senior level positions and find that that's the limit of what they can do and still manage things at home. And, you know, to to Elizabeth's point, the patriarchy. I you know, there's there's I think there's a lot of societal pressures. It's not just the tech industry.

I think But, you know, certainly tech has its own challenges.

I was, it reminds me of in that point, it reminds me of this, Harvard Business Review article that I was linked to the other day, and it's called why some men pretend to work 80 hour work weeks. And it talks about this division of, the way that men and women in their careers are conditioned to sort of approach work. And so women, this researcher found the trend that women would actually ask for the time so that they could take care of children, personal needs, all of that impacted career growth. Men just took that time off without asking for it, and it didn't impact their career growth. And I think that there is something to be said about the way that we condition ourselves to approach work and approach gender roles within work, that that impacts career growth for women.

And I think that it goes back to some of those societal things. I think there's some other things that go along with that too. I mean, when you look at the tech startup world, a lot of that has to do with VC funding. Where who is able to be in the room to ask for the money? And how can they get those meetings?

And who are the champions that are going to bat for them? So when you think about the even that foundational level to get to all of these different companies that we work at, there were hundreds of companies that failed, and probably a lot of them were potentially because they couldn't get funding and maybe some of that was because they were, you know, a women owned or women led company. And then I think also we don't. It's certainly a smaller percentage of women versus men in terms of when you look at, you know, these CEO list of CEOs. But I do think that the the good thing is that it is expanding, and there is more access now, and there is more awareness.

But I think that it's a very long road that we have to change the dynamics. Yeah. So those are my thoughts.

Love it. Allison, any thoughts?

I so many, that I could go into. I think, Elizabeth, you brought up some really great points. I I do think it is how women are raised in business versus how men are raised in business. There's so many studies about how the pandemic affected women in business. They left the workplace to stay home and take care of children while men stayed.

Typically, we took a huge hit, not only at, like, the executive level. We saw executives stepping down to stay home and and care for family members, and we're we're not back yet. And so I think, you know, a good start is having conversations like this. Having allies in the executive suite understand, you know, how and this will go into a few of our other questions, I'm sure, on the list. But, you know, we don't have the role models.

I and and I think when women get to the CEO level, the pressure and scrutiny on them is double what it is on the typical CEO. I think about the Sheryl Sandbergs and, you know, just how everything that she did became a new story versus, you know, the typical CEO. So,

yeah,

I I think we're getting there. I'm seeing more representation of women in general in tech, and now it's how do you help them make that leap.

Yep. I like that. Just just get a when I think of also just the technical jobs, I'm you see some women in those, but it's a lot less in the really technical kind of stuff. And we've gotta really, I think, kind of start educating women at a very young age to to push them to say, hey. You know, you could probably get a lot of boys in your class, but, you know, just how do you do some of that?

But I love that. Really

good stuff. And I think we need to educate, not necessarily educate the girls that it's okay to be in that class, but to educate the boys that there's no reason that they should only be boys in that class. Because I think we put a I think that goes back to these the way that we put, like, we put these things on women so often from the time they are girls. So that by the time you become a woman CEO, you know that not only do you have to go out there with being smarter and better. And this is like, you know, let's say as a white woman, I'm saying this because it's even harder if you are not white.

Like, from the things that I've heard my friends say, like, I have to make sure I'm smarter than everyone in the room, that I'm more polished, that I'm more practiced, but also that my shoes look good, that my outfit is on point, that I'm getting hit from the right angles. I don't I know very few men, and I think we actually have talked about this before, who have to think so much about not just the way they show up in business, but the way they appear. And women are like, our worth is so starts there. And so to me, it's like we gotta start when we talk about starting early, like, let's start early teaching that, like, that's not what matters. It it what matters is that your brains like, it's fine to be pretty, and I love to, like, put makeup on and do my hair.

But I think that, like, the framing of we should teach girls it's okay to be in that class is needs to be kind of flipped a little bit.

Well and it puts you know, we wanna make sure we're not putting the burden on the group that's already at a disadvantage, already trying to come over overcome various challenges, it shouldn't also then be an additional burden to say, oh, and you need to do the work of justifying that you're there and making it okay for yourself. It's it's really just breaking down a lot of stereotypes and norms. And, I mean, you know, these are things that we've all known and talked about for years, and I I do think that it's getting better, but I I think there are still a lot of challenges to it. I still see a lot of a lot of boys clubs. I still see a lot of women in leadership getting frustrated when they're not invited to the golf game or not included in conversation.

And I think that there are more places there's still more leveling of the playing field to do in a lot a lot of ways. And it shouldn't the the work shouldn't just be on the group that's trying to overcome the disadvantage. It needs to be on all of us.

Absolutely.

So what's your reaction to, like, you know, a man is hiring, you know, in the tech space, and he says something like, I'm having a hard time hiring women who are qualified, for this for this job in tech. Should I just lower the bar in order to make the target of hiring females?

I'd say they're not looking hard enough, and they need to look at their candidate pool. Like, there's a lot of qualified women out there now. I I certainly believe that there aren't women that can take a lot of these roles.

Oh, and I would also say, the expectation that women place on themselves when applying for a role is that they're a 100% qualified. And men typically go, 80 percent of the way there. I would put that on the hiring manager as well. If you're looking for talent, and you wanna grow your team, specifically adding diversity to your team, you're gonna have to teach people. And so you better start looking at the skills that you can teach easily versus the ones that you can't.

And so when I'm when I'm hiring people on my team, they may not have community experience, but, man, they're tenacious about learning. They wanna get in there. They they they're showing to me that they're willing to make up for that 20% that they may not be qualified for. I would put that on the hiring manager. If you're looking to grow and develop people, that's what you should be looking at.

Not necessarily, you know, lowering your standards, but raising your expectations as a leader.

It's good. I love that. Yeah. Elizabeth. Yeah.

I know Elizabeth wants to start

with guys. No. I'm just nodding along because yes. And plus heavy plus ones to Nicole and and, like, you bet all

of it all of it.

I have nothing to add. Nothing nothing's gonna make that better. So

No. That's really good. What would you tell women who are, you know, thinking about a career in tech that might hesitate due to, you know, the stereotype that it's a man's world?

I would say there are so many community organizations out there for women in tech. Google Women in Tech and your city, and go start talking to people. Because tech is such a broad term. And especially at this point, if you are any type of knowledge worker, you are probably in some way related to tech. And there are you know, it's not just being someone who is in one of the stem fields and actually, you know, like coding things.

Women in tech also means product designers and product managers and program organizers and our roles in community. There's so many different parts of tech that you can find something that is interesting to you as a career and then go on the Internet and search for a group that does that. Because I guarantee you there is probably a community either online or in person that is meeting up to talk about the things that you're interested in getting into. And that is a great way to test and see. Is that something that you really wanna do?

Or maybe you do wanna go and be the artist or the writer or the, you know, you you wanna go raise llamas on a on a farm because you're like, no. Actually, this isn't this isn't a thing. But there there are places where your voice can can go and blossom and that you can help to cultivate, what it is that you want to do in your career as a woman in tech.

I would also say, look for companies, 1, where there are women in leadership. Even if there's not a ton, if there are a few, that's a good sign. Most companies, and I I know mine does this and Ozoz, I'm sure your company does as well, have employee resource groups. We have one for women at Zendesk, and they host monthly discussions and meetups and educational opportunities and mentorship and some fitness classes together and all sorts of different things that are a mix of leadership building, skill building, and social activities. If you're wanting to get in attack and you're nervous about it, maybe look for a company that is actively trying to be more inclusive and is actively trying to empower women.

If you're nervous about it, going to a small start up that's all dudes, probably not gonna make you I mean, all of this is just a

be that champion, then don't make

a lot of that one.

But I've been the 1st female hired at a company before, and that's not where I would start my career in tech. It's where I would go after I've built up my chops and I know how to to hold my own in a group. But there are, you know, a ton of resources, both in organizations and outside of organizations that are there to help. There's tons of mentoring out there. I highly recommend finding someone to be that mentor and be that sounding board for you.

Plus 1 plus 1 plus 1.

K. Love it. So bear with me while I kinda get this one out, but I think it's, it's an important kinda it eventually leads to a question. So we've all kind of heard, the assumptions that define women differently than men. So sometimes it's bad.

You know, like, women don't negotiate well. Women's lack. Women lack confidence. You know, women are risk adverse. Women take themselves out of the game because they value family more than careers.

You know, and other times they different, the those folks differentiate, you know, women as, you know, rationale to hire, you know, more women. So the and and and also saying, you know, we're we are more caring, cooperative, organized, and or, you know, pet peeve of my friends was, you know, we're better than we're better note takers than men. So in saying that, do these things differentiate women in a productive way or are there things that need to be fixed or accommodated? I know it's a big one.

Yeah. There's a lot in there, Chris.

That's why I said nail it with me.

You know, I think that there there's always a grain of truth to certain stereotypes, but I think a lot of these are just blanket assumptions that, like, you just can't make about all women or all any group of people.

Am I wrong? Have do you do you guys hear those? Go

ahead. No. I mean, I definitely hear that. And I will say, like, I know that when so I ran for a while, a group that was for women in digital, and mobile. Like, that was when digital, like, meant the Internet.

Like, if you had a job at the Internet, you're in digital. Anyway and, it was women in wireless. Anyway, so what we would survey our members, like, what do you wanna hear about? What are the things that you want to have us host workshops on and things like that? And I will say that negotiations and how to be a better negotiator was a number one thing that that was requested.

And we did a number of workshops around it. And I think the reason that it was requested is because what would happen and what I have seen happen in my career and I've seen happen to my friends is that a woman will think that she has negotiated a good contract. And then she starts at a company and she finds out what the dude who doesn't have more experience than her, who hasn't been doing this job longer, what his contract was. And when you know that that different when you don't know that difference exists, you don't necessarily know that you could negotiate for more or that you are that the value of your work should be the same. Maybe you got a lower offer for whatever reason.

Who knows? But I think it's the it's not necessarily that they're the women are blanket bad negotiators or don't know how to go negotiate. I think for so long, there has been such opacity around pay in tech that women didn't know that they were being undervalued. And and I think that's really where that has played out in my experience.

I have a great story on that same line. And negotiation is, for the our women's resource group as well as one of the top conversations. And I think businesses kind of are like, why are you talking about that sometimes? Because it could cost them more money. I was on a girl.

It's great for those of you trying to find different resources. They're great women in tech group. They do an annual conference, and they had a conversation with, a very well known woman leader in tech. And she was a manager, and she managed men and women. And every year at the annual review time, she would say, okay.

Here's your bonus. The women would say, thank you, and the men would say, I want more. And she asked another leader, like, are you experiencing the same thing? Are women just saying thank you? And I raised my hand at that part of her story because I was like, I've always just said thank you.

I didn't even know there was an option to go back and say, no. Wait a minute. I want more. And I think as women, that's part of how we're conditioned, and so we don't know what we don't know until stories like this come out. Right?

My coworker is making more than me. Why is that happening? And so it's it goes back to that business savviness that women aren't necessarily taught that once we find out about it, it's like and you start adding that in, and then it becomes almost uncomfortable. Mhmm. When you go to your boss and go, that's not enough.

It feels really bad to you, but then you get more money, and you're like, oh, that's

not okay.

Yeah. That feels really good.

It worked.

It worked. And so I think, it's not negative things that women necessarily are trying to do on purpose or that we're a bad negotiator. It's just that they don't teach that in business school often, and we're not taught those things in conversations. And so the more we talk about it, I think the better we'll all be for it. And having allies who are mentors or executives who are like, hey.

You need to kinda ask for more money Yeah. Or, you know, this is how you should negotiate. It doesn't even need to be money related. Right? If you need to childcare.

I need to leave at this time every day to go do something with my children. Negotiate that into your contract. Right? And don't be scared to ask for it.

It's, I piggyback on the allies, and so I have a friend who, like, Ira I just I don't even tell them, am I interested? Am I not interested? What and I have a contract. I have something that I I can bargain around. I just wanna know what would you ask for.

And sometimes just knowing that you're not the only person that will be asking for more or or doing that negotiate. There's, like, a lot of reassurance in that solidarity of, like, I'm not a lunatic to ask for x y z when I know that that's what I need. I also think just to the point about, like, women lack confidence or risk averse, etcetera. Like, I think that the that we use to describe women in the workplace and men in the workplace for the same behavior are on hugely different spectrums. And so sometimes what might come across as being meek or polite is not necessarily meek or polite.

You're just like, that's just something that we're not having confidence. Like, if I am too assertive, I cannot tell you the number of times. I don't know if you all noticed, but I talk, and I have no I'm I just have opinions, and they're gonna come out. But I also, like, care very deeply about my team and about work and all that. And so I cannot tell you the number of times that I have been told I have, like, a strong personality or I'm aggressive, and I'm literally using the same language as my male peers in a measured calm voice.

But I am the one who is overreacting, or I'm the one who's, you know, maybe a little too passionate. And it's like, they're the same words. So I think that there's also just the way that we categorize and describe, different types of people in the workplace. And it's not just specific to women. I think that sometimes the language that we use is very influenced by our cultural norms.

So yeah. Yeah.

I think it is so important to ask yourself, would you have the same reaction to somebody if they were a different gender, if they were a different race, if you didn't know their gender or race? Because it comes back to that conversation that it's had so often about how women have to constantly thread that needle of, like, you wanna be confident, but you don't wanna come off as, like, too aggressive or too mean. And you wanna be warm, but you don't wanna be a pushover, but you also don't wanna give people the wrong idea. And it's sort of like there's this very narrow space in which women are considered acceptable as leaders. And to some degree, I almost feel like, you know, that space is so narrow and the goalpost shifts so frequently that there's, like, there's not actually a space.

We just pretend that there is sometimes. And so, you know, it is I do find that it's been true that, like, being a woman in leadership and tech sometimes means having a thick skin and sometimes means not caring what other people think. You know? And I can't tell you the number of times I've walked out of a meeting and been like, oh my god. I bet they all think I'm a I'm such a hard ass or, you know, all of these things.

And I'm like, and it doesn't matter. I, you know, I said what needed to be said in the meeting. I got the work done, and I wish we didn't need to think so much about what those perceptions were and how we're coming off. And I think that at the end of the day, you know, because you asked if what needs to be fixed or what needs to be accommodated. I think the thing that needs to be fixed is not judging people so much and, like, letting letting women behave the same way our male counterparts do and not have that be seen as a detractor for us when it's looked as a positive for them.

I think just I'm gonna dig in a little bit more on that and just say, like, question and this is Allison, Nicole. How many or let me just say, have you ever looked at your email and thought, I have too many exclamation points in that? I am overly excite like, I I am probably coming off too excited. I was trying to be so friendly in this written communications that I now am punctuating every sentence. And if has that ever happened to you?

Because I know it's happened to me.

Oh, yes. I or I'll put

a smiley emoji and then go, maybe not. It I think a lot of snarky answers to that one, Elizabeth. There's a lot of great Internet memes about, you know, how you should respond to emails in a different persona. But I think the goal is to be able to allow everybody to be themselves.

Yes.

I have a wonderful coworker.

I will not name her. She uses emojis for everything. She has a terribly busy job where she is managing people's schedules and the way that she can still keep a great attitude when I know that people are like, what are you doing? I it it brings me joy, and I she loves she just uses emojis outside, and I love it. And I don't take her any less seriously as a business person.

I know she is getting her work done, but I I know, like, you too. Sometimes I'm like, oh, that's one too many exclamation points. We'll take that one out or, oh, that Well, what you're saying is the tone.

It's, like, actually exactly where I was going with it because of what Nicole said about judging. It's like, who cares how many exclamation marks are in there? And it's not so much that, like, I wanna alter my speech or the way that I communicate to be more like a man. It's more that there should just be room for this. Like, I and I and I think that that's the thing that we need to we just need to make room from for this, to that concept of space that you were talking about, Nicole.

Like, I just I think that sometimes that is the thing that really is gonna help to affect it. Like, make the room for it for that nonjudging for the for all for people to just show up and be people at work, and also to, like, be cognizant of your biases and the things that are can potentially happen, but don't don't necessarily, like, let that stop you from being who you need to be.

Yeah. I think Gen z is changing that in the workplace in a really hardcore way, especially when it comes to communications. I have a very junior team, and man alive, And they cut right through some BS sometimes, but also they bring me so much joy with their, you know, their sign outs, and it's it's fantastic. And they're not getting any less work done. And that's what I have to come back to when people start to criticize too many exclamation.

Are they getting their results? Are they doing the job? Are they having some fun here? Okay. Great.

I don't

That's the team

I wanna be on.

Yeah. I love that you asked Elizabeth because I will fully admit. I edit every email I write, every Slack message. I cannot tell you how many times a day I'm going back and deleting and rewriting things, and it's usually to be more direct. It's usually because I put in language like, hey, I was just thinking that maybe, and I'm like, no.

Hi. I'm writing to ask

you this. And some

of that is good business language, right? Not undermining what you're trying to say and just being clear and direct, But I absolutely will sit there and be like, oh, is that too feminine? Is that too wishy washy? Should I, you know, be more abrupt about it? And it was funny.

I actually got feedback from one of my employees. It was like, hey, when you when you hit me up on Slack, can you, like, ask how my day's going first? You're like, you you're too direct. You just dive right into it. But then I have another employee that is always like, I don't need the chitchat.

Just tell me what you need. So, you know, everybody's got their own style, and to your point, everyone should get to just use their own style. And as long as it's not infusing matters, it should be okay to infuse your personality into things and be who you are with.

I'm a big believer in having a personal operating manual so that folks know how to do interacting and how you interact, how you like to talk, and whether you want the chitchat, blah blah blah. I think it it is such a helpful tool for folks who are joining teams, but especially if we're kind of, like, setting team level agreements on how you're gonna communicate with each other. So that's a whole other show, actually.

Gonna say, like, dial it out in motion.

I will

stick with this topic for

now. I like that show. Maybe I'll do something like that. Any other thoughts? This is this is really great.

So there was a question, but I feel like, it was answered. But it was, how does the assumptions play out in the world of tech? You know? So any examples. I already heard examples.

I heard some assumptions that do play out, things like that. So I'm gonna skip that question because it was already answered. But there are I only have one more question, and if I missed a question or 2, we still have a little bit of time. What's one thing should a hiring manager and tech filled or, you know, do or change to recruit more women or keep, the women they have already? What's some things that we should think about?

I mean, I think connecting, you know, as far as retaining women, I think connecting them to mentors, connecting them to resources, connecting them to other women, both within your company and within their field is a really, really helpful thing. Giving people a sounding board, giving people, someone who can help them navigate their career, especially for earlier stage people. I think that's a huge part of retention. Showing that you're you're there to support people and develop them in their growth is something that makes people feel appreciated and something that makes people feel like they're there for more than a paycheck. And so I think that that's really important probably for all your employees, but particularly any that have, you know, unique challenges or disadvantages that you wanna help support them through.

As far as recruiting and hiring, you know, gosh, I wish that hiring processes could be blind. I wish that I could get resumes that have anonymized names and things. I couldn't tell anything about somebody except their qualifications when I'm

at least in the

early stages. I know, like, I had a debate with somebody last month about the beginning of, like, having a headshot on a resume. Oh my god. I was like, oh,

no. Incredible.

And I was like, I wanna Yeah.

Don't do that. Well

I and it's so funny because, like, it does make it, like, more human, but, like, my first thought is, like, as soon as I see a picture, like, oh, no. Quick. Something like put post it over there. I don't want I don't actually wanna see that person because I there are implicit and, inherent biases that we all have, and, you know, we all work to overcome them. But, yeah, man, I wish I wish hiring processes could be a lot more blind in that regard.

I think it would help a lot.

Yeah. And there there's definitely some tools out there that you can get to help with that. And the more that I think that you can do that, that's good. I think especially early in the hiring process. I think one thing in terms of re recruiting women, there I have dropped out of interviews in roles that I was really fascinated by because I had been through 3 rounds of interviews, and I have yet to talk to a woman, like or see them on a panel or hear them mentioned in conversation.

So I think it's important when you are when you put together an interview panel or a hiring panel as a hiring manager, make sure that you are representing your team. And if there is not someone on your team that that person can identify with, go to another team and find someone to be that person. That's I think it's really important when you are interviewing for a job to be able to picture yourself there. And if I are only talking to, you know, guys in slouchy hoodies who are, like, halfway on their phones during. That's terrible interview experience.

I'm sorry for anyone else who has ever been through that. But, like, that you're not gonna see yourself there. So it's important. It's not just about recruiting. It's the whole interview and hiring process, making sure that you're being inclusive in in that way.

Yeah. I totally agree, Elizabeth. I've I've dropped out of hiring things. You know? It's been a while since I was job hunting, but I remember having some interviews where things were going well, and then I met maybe the hiring manager, and they just spent 25 minutes mansplaining the role to me or just telling me what they were looking for instead of asking me questions that you need the chance to end it with, like, yeah.

No. That's not a culture that's gonna work.

Yeah.

And I feel good at this

I do know how to read, sir. I did read the job description.

Exactly. This field. Yes.

Exactly. So I think it's it's so important to go through that hiring process and understand, you know, if if you're looking to hire more women, you need to make sure that the hiring process makes them feel like this is a place that they're gonna be able to grow and have those good opportunities.

That's a good point. Ladies, you made me really think. And and, you know, in in 2 ways. 1, I just hired somebody and she's a woman. It's not why hard?

I mean but, but just kind of I think, somebody said about mansplaining. I'd need to do less of that. So, you know, my wife tells me that all the time. She goes, I don't need to be mansplained too. So I I get that, and and I understand that.

So this has been really good. And then the second piece is even as I kind of recruit for our what I call our executive council was like an advocacy, you know, and I recruit our customers that, are, like, either CIOs, CDOs, and things like that. I've gotta be mindful that out of the 20, of those leaders, there's only 2 women on there. You know? And I'm not saying it's it it should be just a focus of mine to go out and find those customers that are women, you know.

And so that's it just reaffirms or it just confirms that, hey. You know, I need to continue to and maybe even more forcefully ish, you know, start looking for that, know, and say, hey. Do you have any women that you know of that's a CTO, CDO, whatever, you know? No. Okay.

Next. You know, like, just, just start talking to CSM. Start talking. So it's not just, hiring and recruiting. But to me, it's also thinking about, you know, how do I recruit, you know, those leaders that are gonna help, in in my sense, Realtio, you know, in in in in that way.

You know, when we look at, I remember our last CEO, he recruited to the board, like, 2 or 3 women. 1 was from Salesforce, 1 was from Amazon at at that really high level. 1 is the CIO the CIO at Salesforce, and then I forget, what, the other one was, but somebody at, AWS that's now on our board. And he he, on purpose, would go after women at that high level, you know, to so that there was that diversity. But I think that you have to make an effort to to do those things.

So thank you. Did I miss anything from a question? Anything that you wanted to add? Or

Well, I was thinking maybe a fun way for us to wrap the conversation is to give some shout outs and talk a little bit about some of the women that we see helping to blaze the trail or lift other women up, and and some of the people that have helped us along the way. Got it. Because that's really the end of the day. You know, we all started this conversation stating that we wanted to create a space that is more welcoming to other women, and and we've also we're all the beneficiaries of people who did that for us ourselves. So I will kick it off.

I have to say, we had a a CFO at my company who is a woman. She's now over at Host. Her name is Elena Gomez, and she was a huge champion for me at Zendesk. She led our women's employee research group for a long time. She was really good about taking time out of what was a very busy c staff schedule to come in and do fireside chats for women in the organization.

And there was a point in time where there was an opportunity for me to start leveling up. Like I said, I've been, like, the tip of the spear of the community organization, and she really championed it. And I remember she she helped kinda push it ahead and and push it out of cycle. You know, most companies have, like, a couple specific times a year to do promotions, and I got a big out of cycle promotion, and it was because she was like, look, this is somebody who's a great leader, and she's doing awesome things, and let's empower that, and let's move that forward, and let's lift her up. So I would say, you know, big thank you to Elena because she she was a real trailblazer for me, and she continues to be a role model in my life.

Love that.

Awesome.

Good. What else do you also have?

Either way, Elizabeth, I can

go for it.

Okay. I am gonna try to get through this without crying. But I cry at work all the time, and everybody that I know knows that. And I talk about it all the time because women I'm here for it. We're here for it.

Talk about it. So I had a couple people. In a previous previous life, Pam Bednar and Katie Kranz Victor taught me what it's like to be a woman in, marketing. And they were some of the brightest marketers that I've ever met, but they really championed. I was very young, and it was how to I was pregnant for the first time.

Like, how do you start to find that balance? And they were incredible women and and and minds that I got to work with. Martha Galley, I cannot. She's our EVP of customer engagement and services at my current company. I really she has done a lot for my career and just mentoring me and believing in me and make letting me make the leap to my current role and building my current team.

Michael Weening, our CEO, also has been a huge mentor to me as well. Got through it without crying, you guys. And then and then finally, he's no longer at my current company, but Juan Bala was also another huge advocate for me and helping to guide and mentor me in an ally in speaking my mind as a woman. He had 3 daughters and was very big on champion women and women in the workplace, and he made a huge impact in teaching me negotiation skills, presentation skills, and really giving me kind of that sideline knowledge that weren't wasn't really available to me. So, I've been very blessed.

And now I have 2 more ladies on my list of people who can help influence me.

So thank you. Yeah. Yay.

They almost made me cry.

I know. I'm both together.

Sorry, guys.

So I it it's well known that I am a the president and founding member of the Erica Cool and Holly Firestone, fan club. So if you'd like stickers or other merch, just contact me. But I I think there is really something to be said for when it comes to community, like building the confidence and in the knowledge and the things that I had done. Like, Erica and Holly were both huge champions for me to say, like, you know what you're doing. You know what you're talking about.

And seeing them as experts in this space and feeling validated by that was probably one of the most meaningful things for me in deciding to they they yes. This is what I wanna continue to pursue as my career because I'm an old lady now, and I probably won't have a chance to do another one. So let's just go for this for now. But I also think, outside of the community world, I was part of a group. Like, I was saying the women in wireless group and, Dina Chaffetz, who is now one of my very good friends.

But at the time, she were as a consultant for a mobile app agency, and she, again, was like, I don't think you realize the amazing things that you're doing. And so I think it's not just about having people who will champion you, but also stand there and point out, like, hey. You're actually kind of fucking amazing. So you need to just, like, recognize that at least in this moment that you know your shit. And so I will always be grateful for her for continuing to push me and be like, you could be doing more.

You should be asking for more. And then I think also, you know, someone at Slack who I have really just appreciated tremendously is Bear Douglas. She's done a lot of fantastic things, for the DevRel team and for DevRel in a lot of different places, but also just seeing her kind of quiet power in these big rooms is is an amazing thing to behold, and she's always been a really great champion of the programs that we've been running. So can't cannot say my love for a mayor. So

so I have to second your shout out for Dina. I'm so shocked to hear that you know her. We're. She and I worked together at the very first agency that I worked at. Wild.

Intern just starting, and she pulled me aside one day and was like, how much do you make? And I told her, and she's like, I'm gonna go tell our boss that he needs to double that right now. You don't make enough.

That sounds exactly like Dina. Yeah.

And she was the first person that, like, really made me realize one, that I was being taken advantage of, but really similar way you said that I had value. So, Dina, you are saving women all over the place. Thank you.

I think we just may have founded the Dina Chaffetz fan club. So

I was gonna say, I think she gets this fan club too. And, you know, you you mentioned Erica and how they they are amazing women, and I, I I'm really lucky to get to to talk to Erica on a regular basis, and I'm a huge fan of them.

And I think

we are so lucky that we are working in an industry in tech that has so many amazing leaders. I also think of, like, Shana Summers over at HubSpot

and what

she's doing in the space, identified how she's really leading community apps. Yeah. Rosie Sherry and, you know, being such a leader in the the DevRel space, there are so many really amazing women in community, and I think it's one of the coolest things about working in communities. It's a really great entry point for women into tech because it is a really welcoming space. It is a space that's really focused on, you know, equality and being welcoming to everyone.

And there are so many awesome women leaders. And yet, within community, you can get really technical, and it's a really good entry point into a lot of organizations. And it's a space where if you wanna get into developer activities, if you wanna get into products management and things, it's a good place to start and get your grounding and then or, you know, build your career in kitty like reality. Yeah. So this was awesome.

It was so lovely speaking with you, but, Chris, thank you for bringing us together. Yeah. Absolutely, Chris.

Yeah. This is really great. And don't forget, the 3 of you are really great leaders in in your space and community. And I I agree. There's a lot of women, in the community space, and it's a great place, I think, big to start.

So thank you so much for all of you coming to another peers over beers. I'm Chris Detzel. And

I'm Elizabeth Kinsey.

Nicole Saunders.

Allison Boudreaux.

Thank you.