Episode 076 - Guest host Elizabeth Kinsey, at Slack, is a Director! Community Titles Matter and Paths of a Community Manager

Chris Detzel: Hello everyone, welcome to another peers over beers episode, my name is Chris Council i'm not going to say special guest, but I do have Elizabeth kinsey on the phone today or on the podcast today.

Chris Detzel: From slack Elizabeth.

Elizabeth Kinsey: hey Chris how's it going thanks for having megan.

Chris Detzel: yeah well thanks for coming on and.

Chris Detzel: Congratulations isn't going to tell you, congratulations you've now got a new title and everything else so that's pretty awesome.

Elizabeth Kinsey: yeah Thank you very much i'm super excited that I got promoted my new title is director community.

Elizabeth Kinsey: So super.

Elizabeth Kinsey: super excited about that Thank you.

Chris Detzel: yeah and I just got promoted to a few months ago, so.

Chris Detzel: Congratulations, thank you very much.

Chris Detzel: And it's funny because I put it on linkedin you know how you change it, and I think 200 I wasn't counting at first, and then I posted this in one of the Community slack channels, you know that i'm peers I think you're the same.

Chris Detzel: One with.

Chris Detzel: dinner five.

Chris Detzel: ways I posted that and somebody goes.

Chris Detzel: Chris you have like 150 people that liked it and commented, and I was like oh really so I looked I was like let's see if I can get to 200.

Chris Detzel: So.

Chris Detzel: No, but it's it's cool and so I wanted to talk a little bit about that today is, you know that titles matter.

Chris Detzel: In Community and probably anywhere you go, I mean we all care about titles and you know I used to kind of think.

Chris Detzel: Oh, you know you could just pay me more you know I mean call me whatever you want, but you know as i've been in the space for a while, you know you've kind of seen it grow a little bit and things like that, but will you think about titles mountains matter to you.

Elizabeth Kinsey: So I think similar to you I for a long time, I was like oh it doesn't really matter, but it does matter, I think it definitely does matter I think even thinking about.

Elizabeth Kinsey: Your career path and sometimes the work might be similar because titles and levels are going to be different at across different companies right and.

Elizabeth Kinsey: So it may be that, at a tiny startup you are the you know chief Community officer, but at the much larger company you're like a senior Director or something like that, and so, but I do think that.

Elizabeth Kinsey: Within the context of the company in the context of the industry titles definitely matter, especially when you think about career progression when I went from branch to slack I went from being a director to a manager and.

Elizabeth Kinsey: At the time I was like it's the same type of work and it's you know you know i've got more opportunities here, you know you don't leave a job because they're going to pay you less.

Elizabeth Kinsey: yeah i'm so like you know right, it was.

Elizabeth Kinsey: we're typically you don't anyway so it's like it's fine, but I definitely noticed.

Elizabeth Kinsey: The difference in the way that.

Elizabeth Kinsey: Even within the industry like the way that it was perceived, so I think titles matter for sure.

Chris Detzel: yeah I agree, I think, in in our pre show you know we kind of talked a little bit about you know.

Chris Detzel: When you're in front of either executives or other directors or VP or even you know, sometimes when you're in front of other.

Chris Detzel: People from different countries, you know they see titles, some of them it's very important like when you're in France, and you even mentioned Russia and things like that, and so you know, I was telling you a little story and i'll let you react or tell a story if you'd like but.

Chris Detzel: When I was.

Chris Detzel: Well, just recently, before I got.

Chris Detzel: The Director title over the last year, you know i'm in front of you know, senior level people i'm talking to the peas and executives and whatever about you know community and stuff like that and.

Chris Detzel: I have probably had this probably internal thing, whether or not people really thought this or not, you know, I wonder, you know.

Chris Detzel: i'm just a manager, you know people really listening to what i'm saying, and I think they were, but it also helps you know you to fill out the same level as they are right, and then there is no kind of but you had a story about you know something like that which I thought was interesting.

Elizabeth Kinsey: yeah and I think what you're doing is like very much appear a power dynamic because of the language that goes after your name, which is.

Elizabeth Kinsey: super interesting and so you remove.

Elizabeth Kinsey: That power, dynamic and there's a much better opportunity or chance for you to be able to.

Elizabeth Kinsey: collaborate with someone, even if it's a subconscious thing I do definitely think that.

Elizabeth Kinsey: That happens, I was telling you the story, so I worked with a guy in Russia, who is a developer advocate basically was what he did.

Elizabeth Kinsey: about the company, I worked for we call them evangelists and he actually blackman he sent me a slack message and he was like um.

Elizabeth Kinsey: So I think, maybe like you're a very American like view of the word evangelists like in doesn't really translate in Russia and then one of our.

Elizabeth Kinsey: Our Dev advocates, who was in India, he said the same thing he's like so evangelist doesn't really like no one takes me seriously here, and so I think also sometimes it speaks to the sort of tech.

Elizabeth Kinsey: nonsense that happens with titles sometimes like I can't like no one, no one wants their title be Community rockstar like what is that going to get you in.

Elizabeth Kinsey: Your career like no one wants to be community.

Elizabeth Kinsey: magician like that's a good point.

Chris Detzel: Yes, the same evangelist like.

Elizabeth Kinsey: spray yeah.

Chris Detzel: i've seen somebody somebody title one time chief evangelist sounds like what the hell, it said don't even know what that means.

Elizabeth Kinsey: You know, and it never so guy guy Kawasaki, who is the chief evangelist of Canada for a while and I think he also worked at apple I can't remember, but I remember the first time that I saw that.

Elizabeth Kinsey: yeah and I had a similar reaction, because I mean honestly evangelicalism like where i'm from you know my.

Elizabeth Kinsey: mormon is my background like I grew up mormon and so evangelical or like evangelism that's like.

Chris Detzel: that's churchy.

Elizabeth Kinsey: it's it's exactly So when I first saw that it was like to can't his camera what I didn't even know what camera was but I like read about it in a marketing magazine, it was like is what is this guy do like are they a religion like it.

Elizabeth Kinsey: And it didn't but then it became such a prevalent term in tech, and especially.

Elizabeth Kinsey: Among startups were like you know if you did anything Community or developer relations for a long time, you were an evangelist it's like.

Can we not, though.

Chris Detzel: Well, I mean.

Chris Detzel: Did you stop calling your folks evangelist or do.

Elizabeth Kinsey: We did we did he became my technical, I think we became a technical.

Elizabeth Kinsey: developer technical architect and and the other one became an advocate so developer advocate.

Chris Detzel: So you know the point of this is titles do matter.

Elizabeth Kinsey: titles do matter.

Chris Detzel: I don't do matter.

Chris Detzel: And you know when you told a good story about it right.

Chris Detzel: I like it.

Chris Detzel: And something that you mentioned was.

Chris Detzel: kind of roles and responsibilities that are not responsibilities but roles and how I guess David spinks came out with this new kind of.

Chris Detzel: Yes, I saw that but I didn't really get to.

Chris Detzel: Take a look at that yet.

Elizabeth Kinsey: yeah so it's like a Community career map and I haven't I haven't gone too deep into it i've just kind of skimmed over it, but.

Elizabeth Kinsey: It sounds like they've been using this at cms and baby, for the last year or so to sort of map what.

Elizabeth Kinsey: Your career progression would look like in that Community space it's adapted from or inspired by career path from poly firestone, who is now verify, who was previously it last year and and salesforce and then also married single who is.

Elizabeth Kinsey: A huge name, integral and amazing both of them are amazing I, the first time I saw a Community career path was actually from Erica cool and holly firestone when they were both still at salesforce and.

Elizabeth Kinsey: we'd reached out to them to ask them a bunch of stuff about like just building communities, because that's what you do right you like to.

Elizabeth Kinsey: Ask people that have done it, and so, in the course of that I ended up seeing some of the career mapping that they had.

Elizabeth Kinsey: For trailblazers and kind of what they had developed along the way, and it blew my mind at the time that like.

Elizabeth Kinsey: There were people out there, thinking about a career path, so the fact that we've gotten from like.

Elizabeth Kinsey: That which was probably four years ago, and now this like beautiful Community career map, which I think is definitely something that i'm going to dig into and probably adopt for our team.

Elizabeth Kinsey: and take because, like even just glancing at it, looking at kind of what the responsibilities are the technical skills like this looks like a really great resource.

Chris Detzel: And you write copy paste it on like a hey, this is what i'm looking for.

Elizabeth Kinsey: It says free template.

Elizabeth Kinsey: yeah it's.

Elizabeth Kinsey: Our next, so I yeah everybody should there's like a ton of people that i'm looking at it right now there's like seven people on the dock right now so.

Elizabeth Kinsey: i'd say it's popular.

Chris Detzel: Do you think, so you have I don't have any staff as of yet I think i'm going to get one sometime early this year or late, I don't know but.

Chris Detzel: As you kind of look at your staff, how important is something obviously it's important right it gives you a really good guide of how to kind of move them along the way right.

Elizabeth Kinsey: yeah definitely I mean that slack we have really great we're pretty lucky we've gotten very good indication around career mapping.

Elizabeth Kinsey: Within the marketing Oregon so we've kind of adapted that to Community but it's Nice, this is going to be great to have things that are a little bit more specific to what it is we're doing and I think, looking forward, as we build the team out.

Elizabeth Kinsey: that's going to be super important because you want to be able to create opportunities for people to grow into new roles, but that doesn't necessarily mean that like.

Elizabeth Kinsey: You, you have the idea of what all of those steps might be, and this, I think you know, is the type of thing they income in combination with you know your company's.

Chris Detzel: yep.

Elizabeth Kinsey: sort of career level mapping, you can make something that's really clear, and I think that that's the biggest piece around titles and career mapping.

Elizabeth Kinsey: People just don't want uncertainty right like when you are, you know, a couple of years into working and you're starting to realize like hey maybe I do need to put boundaries in place hey maybe I do need to like.

Elizabeth Kinsey: Think about where do I want to be in five or 10 years, not necessarily just you know, can I pay the rent tomorrow, and I think that, obviously, as you that that still happens it's happened in my 30s I pay the rent.

Elizabeth Kinsey: But I say.

Elizabeth Kinsey: No let's not.

Elizabeth Kinsey: do that, but I do think that, like.

Elizabeth Kinsey: Having an idea of where you're trying to get to give you a lot more incentive to get there than if you're just sort of.

Elizabeth Kinsey: blindly like how do I get promoted, what do I do to move up and get more money, how do I make people you know, give me more responsibility to take on new projects, I think that something like this is is a great a great tool for for people that are managing Community teams.

Chris Detzel: yeah I think that when you look at even a company like mine, and you know we're a small company right, you know and we're kind of this startup that's just kind of taken off in a way, but.

Chris Detzel: You know the career ladder and career kind of goals and all that kind of stuff is being built, today, you know.

Chris Detzel: They.

Elizabeth Kinsey: don't have that out.

Chris Detzel: we're starting to build the, not just in Community but in all roles within the entire company, because we didn't have that it was just like.

Chris Detzel: You know the startups I don't want to people and they don't care about that HR stuff and the career ladder.

Chris Detzel: But as you grow and get bigger you start caring about it because one you know you want your people to stay, you know and to is.

Chris Detzel: Because we all want that, like you know if i'm sitting here and i'm like okay well when, how can I get a promotion, what does that mean you know we all want to know what that is and.

Chris Detzel: And I think that community has been short changed for a long time, and maybe just because it's not new, you know, like let's quit calling it new it's been around for like.

Elizabeth Kinsey: 20 something years.

Chris Detzel: years, but it is now just probably in the last two or three years, I mean.

Chris Detzel: it's booming and taken off now it's it's was there before, but so it was way worse than right when you think of career ladders, but.

Chris Detzel: So they have to do something and there and I really think that was a great idea from see Max that he I don't know whatever you wanna call them.

Chris Detzel: But you know to do that, because you know, and then you know you want your people.

Chris Detzel: That are under you to feel that way i'm sure you know, having a team and everything else changes everything a team of one you're like I just care about myself a team of four or five or whatever you have, and as you kind of grow.

Chris Detzel: You know, they have to be able to do that as well you know and grow, you know.

Chris Detzel: I mean we all do.

Elizabeth Kinsey: chicken, I think I totally agree with you, and I think one other thing, especially right now right so we're in the middle of the biggest sort of of my generation, the biggest shift and how people work.

Elizabeth Kinsey: Where they work.

Elizabeth Kinsey: Leaving like the great resignation, the great hiring but whatever you want to call it like we're in the middle of that people are burnt out, they need change in order to see themselves in a new world of work.

Elizabeth Kinsey: A lot of them are leaving the jobs that they have.

Elizabeth Kinsey: This is the kind of thing that I think can help solve some of that burnout like not necessarily solve it, but give you a much better ladder to climb and give you I mean.

Elizabeth Kinsey: You know whether it's this career map or it's something that you do with your company or you use, you know if you go check out holly firestones blog she's got some great thoughts on this.

Elizabeth Kinsey: there's there are a lot of community leaders out there have really good thoughts on this but, like the more again that you can be clear with people.

Elizabeth Kinsey: The less that they're going to the less tendency, there can be to have that burnout because.

Elizabeth Kinsey: You can take here all the things that I should be doing within this role and build your boundaries and like that's a huge part of not burning out and so.

Elizabeth Kinsey: You know, to your point, you were talking about retention of employees earlier if you have this type of thing in place.

Elizabeth Kinsey: You are much more likely to be able to keep people and to help them progress in their careers and then, when they do leave you because no one's going to stay anywhere forever this isn't 1950 we're not going for gold watches like.

Elizabeth Kinsey: No one's gonna stay anywhere forever right like.

Elizabeth Kinsey: But when they do leave you it's D leave you a grown, you know they've had grown growth.

Elizabeth Kinsey: they've been able to grasp and they're going to take that stuff with them to the next.

Elizabeth Kinsey: place so you're by providing this type of thing you're setting people up for success and then you're also like setting your reputation at for success, I don't know so.

Elizabeth Kinsey: Just really thoughts, but.

Chris Detzel: I like that, and I have read a holly's blog while back as a matter of fact that can be used in some of my presentations or at least parts of it, because it is excellent, you know it just kind of goes to the roles, some of the responsibilities.

Chris Detzel: And she made him she made some nice little pictures for you to look at you know, so it was that is an excellent piece.

Elizabeth Kinsey: Oh absolutely I actually referenced it when I was talking about before we know when I was when I became a senior manager.

Elizabeth Kinsey: And then was going on to actually take on a team my boss at the time, like I shared that that article, with her and was like hey, this is what we want a model like this is the kind of thing that we're thinking about.

Elizabeth Kinsey: And I think that's that's The other thing community is booming right now.

Elizabeth Kinsey: Right now, not new but it's booming, but there are so many executives and people in leadership, who don't really know what it is people should do so when they come to you and they're like hey could this be done by like a temp or could we have like you.

Elizabeth Kinsey: know, can we can we hire someone on contract or can we get that's like sure, but let's really talk about what this role is.

Elizabeth Kinsey: And I think this gives a good starting place for people that don't have any contacts, you and I have a lot of context, like if I hit it, you know if you're.

Elizabeth Kinsey: A startup that's just about to start, you know you're launching a community and you want to think about this in like what are the roles and responsibilities, this is another great framework, I think, but yeah so.

Chris Detzel: So let's talk about that a little bit not to completely get off, but you know as as kind of executives think about you know.

Chris Detzel: A Community manager, for example, and bringing in somebody you know the responsibilities of one person to do community as a lot when you think of you know, having a strategy, building a roadmap to one starting a community from.

Elizabeth Kinsey: scratch.

Chris Detzel: And then you have to think of an engagement strategy to engage them going to think of the goals that you know you got to tie those business, they are your goals into the business goals, whatever those are and then you got to think about.

Chris Detzel: Content strategy to really kind of so they could be Q amp a could be blogs could be video could be.

Elizabeth Kinsey: You know your kitchen, is it user generated content is it.

Chris Detzel: yeah, how do you engage the people, because at the end of the day, you build it they're not coming you know period, you know you have to.

Chris Detzel: begin to give a reason why so when you think of engagement, you have a strategy of.

Chris Detzel: hey, this is what we want to accomplish so if it's a deflection or if it's you know building something kind of cool you know, for your people are peer to peer networking whatever you still have to have those engagement tactics to kind of do that.

Chris Detzel: What i'm getting at is you know I do all that shit today right, you know and on my own So how do you kind of you know, say hey look Chris.

Chris Detzel: Chris is in the world, which is a lot of me in the world, right now, from a Community standpoint, and as I don't know if you heard any of Nicole.

Chris Detzel: Saunders stuff that you know she said, you know you have to show the value and say Okay, if you want to double this value, then you need to hire this, you know that kind of stuff but.

Chris Detzel: Point is is there's a lot of stuff there's people in marketing just doing thinking content there's people in marketing, or in other areas, just thinking of.

Chris Detzel: How do they you know when you think of a CSM how to engage those people, one on one, and in that case it, you know the digital world i'm not saying you can have less, you can have less people doing this stuff.

Chris Detzel: But it's still you know it's still one person for me today how did you convince and then how did you kind of look at the roles and responsibilities to kind of say hey look.

Chris Detzel: You know the Elizabeth kinsey's of the world can't just do this forever, if you want to scale, this is what you're gonna have to do you know engagement I don't know whatever you know, does that.

Chris Detzel: make sense.

Elizabeth Kinsey: yeah totally makes sense, I think, so in both of the last kind of companies, the slack currently and the last company that I worked for.

Elizabeth Kinsey: It was really about, proving that value and also saying okay so here's where we are now if we want to get to the next level.

Elizabeth Kinsey: What do we stop doing in this bucket that has clearly been successful if you don't want to stop doing anything in this bucket that we can measure success on.

Elizabeth Kinsey: Then we need to hire someone else because we have the opportunity to you know increase this success so that's one that was like one piece of the argument of like let's add someone in I think the other piece, especially for where I am now is.

Elizabeth Kinsey: The volume is just too much for.

Chris Detzel: One person.

Chris Detzel: it's just too bad enough.

Elizabeth Kinsey: You know, know, even if we think, even if we boil it down to like one the audience, you know there's over a million developers developing on slack so if it was just developer.

Elizabeth Kinsey: So i'm going to be a million.

Elizabeth Kinsey: i'm my total addressable market would be a million people me one person sure I have the power of the marketing team behind me, and I can work cross functionally with other people.

Chris Detzel: But yes.

Elizabeth Kinsey: i'm still not going to work 12 hour days and i'm not going to.

Chris Detzel: And that's not enough.

Elizabeth Kinsey: Exactly exactly it's like I could just I would never get anything done, and so I.

Elizabeth Kinsey: Saying Okay, these are being really specific about these are the programs, we want to run, this is the time that needs to be invested in them to be successful.

Elizabeth Kinsey: So if we have four of those things that we want to do there is one of me, we need to pick which one is most important, or we need to hire to it, and I think that that was probably especially like getting the first role in.

Elizabeth Kinsey: Black was a big.

Elizabeth Kinsey: Opening door and then it's honestly like after that first role it kind of becomes easier to prove value, because you can then say hey yeah look we hired someone and Look how much better things that.

Elizabeth Kinsey: And so you can continue to kind of layer that on, I think the other thing is that they're like I have definitely been the one person who has done everything.

Elizabeth Kinsey: You know everything the marketing right the copyright the tweet right the you know, create images make the banners or the slag get the pizza like i've done all of the things yeah.

Elizabeth Kinsey: yeah mine, the database clean the records, you know, put it imports and exports do the marketing operations, I definitely think that that is the way, like when it gets to a certain volume everything tries to be a priority and then.

Elizabeth Kinsey: Nothing is not already.

Elizabeth Kinsey: And so, when you get to that point you got to be like hey we need someone else to if we want to continue with the level of craft and that we are now.

Elizabeth Kinsey: So or make sacrifices, what are we going to try and I have always tried to be really clear with my managers about my workload and I think that that's an important thing, like to be able to define.

Elizabeth Kinsey: What you, what is the Max that you can take on and then be really diligent about sticking to that because that's I think what the hardest thing is because it's.

Elizabeth Kinsey: easy to draw boundaries.

Elizabeth Kinsey: And it's easy to walk over him.

Elizabeth Kinsey: He just got it you got to prevent yourself from walking over it.

Chris Detzel: Has it's so good, like so glad you're on this because you've just got so much knowledge to share I it's funny because right before this I was.

Chris Detzel: So I do these things I call them the real to Community shows just deep dives into the product, you know it's kind of complex and but every week, you know we we do on well, we lost our social media person, which used to put kind of the intros on.

Chris Detzel: My videos you know that I push out into videoed into YouTube and everything else.

Chris Detzel: And he would do all that and then he also promoted him through these kind of cards, you know, and so I did all I did was did the.

Chris Detzel: Show now i've got to do it all like right here, I had to do to them was, like all right i'm going to cut this thing and then put this in here and i'm like Why am I doing this.

Chris Detzel: Like I don't have time.

Chris Detzel: to sit here and it's important work but man I just can't you know I don't have the time to sit there and.

Chris Detzel: spend on that you know, I have another job to that is on the Executive Council so i've got to run that how am I going to do that in this Community, at the same time, you know.

Chris Detzel: You know it's just until I think you're right and it's not the problem, though, is that it's it's hard one for us to kind of.

Chris Detzel: Do that right like we do all these things, and then, when we get to communicate it and it's left to us i'm not mad about it, but it is left to us to communicate communicate in a really good way of what we're doing and what we shouldn't do I love what you said, think is highly important.

Chris Detzel: But you know other roles, like in marketing roles are in the customer org they already their roles are defined they already know what they should go do and don't do.

Chris Detzel: So why do we have to continue to.

Chris Detzel: Prove that out and say that it's frustrating, but it is what it is.

Chris Detzel: We can talk about it we've got to.

Chris Detzel: push it out there, you know sorry Chris you know, nobody does feel sorrowful.

Elizabeth Kinsey: I mean, I think this is where tools like this come in really helpful.

Elizabeth Kinsey: yeah I will tell you, though, so my first marketing job was roughly let's see like 2007 ish the first kind of real marketing job that I had and.

Elizabeth Kinsey: there's no respect it was like.

Elizabeth Kinsey: Just the worst everybody crapped all over marketing and there was two of us, we did like.

Elizabeth Kinsey: A ridiculous amount of stuff for the size of company that we were, I mean thinking back i'm like wow I said yes to a lot of stuff that I would not say yes to today and that's just you know, progress and growth.

Elizabeth Kinsey: But it took that same role now that I have or that I had then are very similar role, like those are different subject matter roles and I think something similar is happening with Community.

Elizabeth Kinsey: With and it also has to do with like the size of the company right so like if you are at a small start up a new are in demand gen you're probably doing everything.

Elizabeth Kinsey: yeah, and so I think it also has some what to do with that, but as.

Elizabeth Kinsey: You get bigger and you need more specialization those roles are already defined, and I think that this is something that and that's just over the last you know, especially in the like kind of digital and tech when the.

Elizabeth Kinsey: online world, a lot of those roles are only 1520 years old right like when I had my second marketing job to be an seo manager no I just use Google adwords like how this shit works.

Elizabeth Kinsey: But now.

Elizabeth Kinsey: Now there are people whose whole jobs.

Chris Detzel: Or that your adwords.

Elizabeth Kinsey: Exactly.

Chris Detzel: yeah and I think they don't know anything about seo they just do Google adwords.

Elizabeth Kinsey: matter they matter so their titles.

Chris Detzel: Know look.

Chris Detzel: we're going back to that their titles matter you know that's that's kind of where this is going right like is.

Chris Detzel: is to a specialized specific Community type role, so you get your I haven't looked at his but you know the assumption is you've got kind of this associate role.

Chris Detzel: Then you have Community manager and then you have senior Community manager then Director, etc, but then you can even have enough on the side here engagement.

Chris Detzel: Type Community manager, you can have an operations type Community manager and then all this shit you know that you do just in Community that people want people want data today and the data guy.

Chris Detzel: And the.

Chris Detzel: storyteller under content strategist and engagement strategies, I fucking everything.

Chris Detzel: yeah I mean until.

Chris Detzel: Yet, but you put somebody, that is, you know, specifically on those particular roles, just think you're right, I mean you know at a smaller company we're growing like crazy hopefully over time that changes but it's.

Elizabeth Kinsey: Like you need you need someone on your team Chris what it sounds like to me.

Elizabeth Kinsey: Like work on that.

Chris Detzel: yeah I can work on well I think it's coming but.

Elizabeth Kinsey: yeah.

Chris Detzel: You know i'm i'm not the most political.

Chris Detzel: Guy let's but so you know it's a you know I don't get the best words to say all the time, you know I just I need somebody well you know prove it, Chris you know.

Chris Detzel: fill out all the spreadsheet shit that all these other people have done before, that I haven't done so that's Another thing I couldn't figure out how to do.

Chris Detzel: You know.

Elizabeth Kinsey: it's like the overhead of doing all the overhead.

Chris Detzel: know I just it's just.

Elizabeth Kinsey: there's no.

Chris Detzel: No, it is, I get very passionate about certain subjects, you know and and maybe it's because you know i'm going through some of that today you know, but the stuff that you like.

Chris Detzel: It helps me so i'm glad that you came on today just for that one else event but it's more, so this is how you solve that problem for us, you know that, and I think that's important and so roles titles money, whatever it all matters you know.

Chris Detzel: At the end of the day, and you know, and I think brands matter to I don't know why I just said that, but I think it's.

Chris Detzel: really important like you want to work for a company that has either a good brand a good reputation, you know that you know I just talked to somebody the other day that.

Chris Detzel: They hate their job you know, and they want to quit you know and they just it has a bad culture and everything else, and so you know which you can find a company that really has.

Chris Detzel: A great culture, but like you said of like slack has a really good culture of hiring from what there are no, you know moving up and all these kinds of things and so that sounds pretty awesome to me, you know, and so I don't know.

Elizabeth Kinsey: You want that you want that gold cool true I agree brands matter and agree, where you work matters I think something that I always think about is who am I, making money for because I don't own this company.

Elizabeth Kinsey: Like if I share sure i'm making myself money, but like really who am I, making money for and.

Elizabeth Kinsey: Does that align with who, I am as person.

Elizabeth Kinsey: And I think that that's a luxury it's a luxury to be able to consider that it's a privilege to be in so I want to call that out like I feel privileged to be able to consider that because.

Elizabeth Kinsey: That was not a consideration that I could have thought about you know four or five jobs ago where that was I didn't have the luxury of being able to think that way you know it was like no I just need a job, and so I think that, like.

Elizabeth Kinsey: You know, like, I think that when you get a job that pays well that has health insurance.

Chris Detzel: yeah.

Elizabeth Kinsey: yeah just like a whole other thing, but like.

Chris Detzel: 30s did you want to go on that yeah.

Elizabeth Kinsey: But, but I.

Elizabeth Kinsey: do think that you know, ultimately, that does matter, so I lost my train of thought there but.

Chris Detzel: that's okay it started making me think about.

You know.

Chris Detzel: So the other day I was posting something on Twitter I think it's something about us like I said the other day, a couple weeks ago, and then I looked at your Twitter account, and I saw you karaoke and I was like oh my God that's Elizabeth she she she karaoke is like.

Chris Detzel: On twitch.

Chris Detzel: ya know so that was pretty cool.

Elizabeth Kinsey: yeah yeah.

Chris Detzel: I can listen to this.

Elizabeth Kinsey: Oh God i'm so sorry.

Elizabeth Kinsey: No one should listen to it it's terrible.

Chris Detzel: it's a public so that it is fine for me to Sam.

Chris Detzel: Oh yeah all public so.

Elizabeth Kinsey: Absolutely no it started that's a funding that's a pandemic development, you know we're not the same people we were.

Elizabeth Kinsey: At the start, two years ago, but I was definitely a karaoke person, but you know you couldn't go to karaoke at the start, and during the pandemic.

Elizabeth Kinsey: i'm at the the height of the beginning and so twitch actually had a product called twitch sings.

Elizabeth Kinsey: And i'll bring this back to Community because I can do that so twitch things was great you could get on and you could like sing a bunch of different song, is it you would earn stars and points and you could do, what with random strangers, and like.

Elizabeth Kinsey: wow it developed this whole twitch things community, and so I met a bunch of other weirdos like me and we just would like you know twitch things and they killed they killed it I know it's terrible.

Elizabeth Kinsey: I killed it.

Elizabeth Kinsey: At the beginning of 2021.

Chris Detzel: Worst time to do it.

Elizabeth Kinsey: Worst time to do it, everyone like with so all these communities like migrated there's a discourse around people that were like.

Elizabeth Kinsey: twitch St like fake twitch things famous I was not trust me, I was not.

Elizabeth Kinsey: yeah there were like you know there were all these different communities that sprung up front, which was really cool but they had that they stopped doing it probably because of dmca stuff and takedown notices and.

Elizabeth Kinsey: All the copyright stuff that happens with music and they probably just like this is a headache we don't want to do that anymore.

Elizabeth Kinsey: But then left this void, what are you going to do, like you know still it's still a pandemic so i'm not going to go and do the most dangerous activity that you could possibly do a pandemic singing indoors.

Chris Detzel: wants to put a mask on doing it.

Chris Detzel: You know it's just as difficult.

Elizabeth Kinsey: um yeah it's not just ruins at all, and so I started to streaming random karaoke on Friday nights and still get to hang out with some of the people, the Community so that's fun.

Chris Detzel: That is cool you know.

Chris Detzel: The folks that really love karaoke or creates so when you go to like.

Chris Detzel: Like hang out with them, you know they just want to go do a ton of karaoke and it's a lot of fun I don't do it a lot but.

Chris Detzel: like this whole culture of.

Chris Detzel: let's go to karaoke.

Elizabeth Kinsey: My biggest pre pandemic regret we so at slack the devil team it before the pandemic did these tours.

Elizabeth Kinsey: Where we would go to different parts of the world and do a bunch of meetups and show off a bunch of the stuff for the products.

Elizabeth Kinsey: And I decided oh I don't need to go on the apac tour i'll go on the next one it'll be fine This is like November of 2019.

Elizabeth Kinsey: it's like no I don't need to go to you know so and Tokyo and I need to go to Singapore so during that all the Dev team that did go to all those places they are like sending me pictures of karaoke every.

Elizabeth Kinsey: Time and i'm like Oh, I really want you know Fo mo really wish I went and then the pandemic happened and now i'm like full that's like the one like one of my biggest regrets like definitely.

Chris Detzel: Add Joe.

Elizabeth Kinsey: At the bullet I had I was coming off the I would add a bunch of trouble, there was like a bunch of Community events happening, and I was like i'm just going to travel for those.

Elizabeth Kinsey: i'll stay in the US side like people family getting married as to be so hard, of course, me.

Chris Detzel: Much yeah.

Elizabeth Kinsey: yeah I would totally should have just lived through all that crap and like gone.

Elizabeth Kinsey: And I can tell you how great karaoke in Korea is but.

Chris Detzel: yeah that's created well I hear it's awesome.

Chris Detzel: yeah I remember during kind of that time, as I was working at in provo and the nice thing is, I get to travel all over the world, you know I went to.

Chris Detzel: Israel a couple of times I went to Belfast.

Chris Detzel: You know and names California, whatever but.

Chris Detzel: Then I had a trip booked for Singapore and then I had another trip booked for another Israeli trip and another Belfast and then my wife and I can get in South Africa and she's can do run thing or whatever and it's all booked.

Chris Detzel: trial everything.

Chris Detzel: Like literally started in February, you know that's when it started.

Chris Detzel: Was yeah basically.

Chris Detzel: And I had to cancel it all like I couldn't believe it in.

Elizabeth Kinsey: The dollars oh God.

Chris Detzel: It was it was terrible and so you know the positive is is that.

Chris Detzel: You know.

Chris Detzel: You know I get to do some of that beforehand, you know but.

Chris Detzel: You know I left that company came here at rel to because I do think that you know brings us back to Community building relationships, not just here in the US, but all over the world, and having beers with people literally beers you know we're not.

Chris Detzel: Here today but.

Chris Detzel: Having beers building those relationships just having pizza whatever karaoke with people, you know that you do deserve you work with and even customers, of course, but this is important and so it's been a transition for me over this last I don't know, three years since like.

Chris Detzel: Two and a half, whatever but i'm sure you can have dealt with that same thing so.

Elizabeth Kinsey: yeah definitely the the oh my God I haven't gotten on a plane every two weeks for two years is real, one of my co workers was like i'm calling because i'm getting on a plane so excited i'm like oh i'm so jealous i've got a couple places but it's not nothing.

Chris Detzel: same, I mean.

Chris Detzel: yeah I think of travel, work wise twice last year.

Chris Detzel: And that's it twice that that's it, you know, like I traveled twice.

Chris Detzel: ya know and and so it's kind of crazy.

Chris Detzel: Well it's it's great topic around you know your role matters your title matters and then going a little bit deeper into.

Chris Detzel: You know, different roles and responsibilities within Community and I really, really enjoyed this peers over beers so thank you so much.

Elizabeth Kinsey: yeah thanks for having me it's super fun conversation.

Chris Detzel: was well thanks everyone for another peers over beers my name is Chris settle and we had Elizabeth kinsey on the phone slack and she did get a promotion director of Community so congratulations.

Elizabeth Kinsey: Thanks friends.

Chris Detzel: All right, bye bye.