Episode 078 - Rewards, Recognition and Gamification - The Value of the Top 10% of your Community Users

Chris Detzel: Welcome to another peers over beers i'm krista total and we have Nicole Saunders from zendesk our you Nicole.

Nicole Saunders: i'm doing great how are you.

Chris Detzel: i'm doing good you know I I don't see your special guests you work, as this is.

Chris Detzel: Their time and what have you.

Chris Detzel: or.

Chris Detzel: My regular regular like a you know such a you get good words to use i'm the worst with using a bunch of good words so.

Chris Detzel: You know.

Chris Detzel: We had this pre show and I emailed you a little earlier this week about you know what What should we talk about and I am intrigued, so why don't you kick it off and then we'll go from there.

Nicole Saunders: yeah well as I recall, I think I suggested that we sort of talked about the the pareto principle or what most people know as the 8020 rule and how it applies to communities.

Nicole Saunders: And it's it's something that's been on my mind, a lot lately as i've been focused on building a couple of programs in our Community and so.

Nicole Saunders: You know, for anybody that's not familiar with it it's sort of the idea of that, and this is a model that applies over all sorts of industries field applications things over time that typically about 20% of your inputs are going to create about 80% of your outputs.

Nicole Saunders: And I was kind of like look around on this and I found a cool YouTube video that carrie Melissa Jones had put together and she's a great Community expert that I love to follow and she really.

Chris Detzel: kind of an acid, so I don't think we could put in the show notes or something like that, but I will.

Nicole Saunders: For those anyone listening I highly recommend checking out for videos about five minutes long.

Nicole Saunders: But she really talks about how this applies in communities, and I think what's interesting is in communities, sometimes it's even more dramatic than 8020.

Nicole Saunders: you hear people sometimes talk about like the 99 one rule right where it's.

Nicole Saunders: Nothing really.

Chris Detzel: But yeah maybe.

Nicole Saunders: They are 9010 one or well, that would be 101% but you know.

Nicole Saunders: Go for the goal.

Nicole Saunders: But it's really like the key point is this idea and as Kerry put it this video that's somewhere between four and 20% of the people that use your community are probably going to create the vast majority.

Nicole Saunders: Of the engagement and things and that other huge number of people that use your community and.

Nicole Saunders: aren't those top creators, those are your you know what we've historically called lurkers or some people call learners those are the people that are.

Nicole Saunders: Learning from your Community there may be coming through.

Nicole Saunders: and watching a video or reading a conversation, they may never log it, they may never post them in never vote, they may never even tell you that they're there other than your you know page views on Google analytics but that's a huge audience for your community and.

Nicole Saunders: Now everything, if you could kind of talk about the value of those top 20 or 10 or 1% users and and really how to engage them and how to work with those in the Community space.

Chris Detzel: yeah.

Chris Detzel: As I kind of think about it, I think it's it seems to be true i've heard some of the same things i've heard it, you know 9010 so.

Chris Detzel: 90% of the people that come in, are just kind of looking at your content and and.

Chris Detzel: they're getting value out of it right, like the reading some stuff they may be just certain might have searched on Google and then came to your site and then now they're.

Chris Detzel: long time kind of long timers but they don't do much or anything as a matter of fact, I mean you know my wife was telling me so she goes to that money or used to go to the money forums, I forgot what it's called but money mustache or whatever right and she goes oh.

Nicole Saunders: yeah.

Chris Detzel: I never log into that I just go to the site and and read and I learned from money mustache you know.

Chris Detzel: of how I just read and I go there all the time to do I don't know if she still does, but you know she has no way i'm going to log into that I want people want my stuff so there could.

Chris Detzel: Be it could be a lot of those kind of people, but I agree, how do you get you know built some programs around those 10% 20% whatever that number is because you mentioned something.

Chris Detzel: Earlier, is that you know we're trying to always get those 80% 90% people engaged and involved and replying and you know, sometimes it's just not you know, maybe out of that 90% maybe you get one person five you know what I mean like is it worth.

Chris Detzel: That ever so instead, do you not it say you don't give them a chance to kind of that onboarding piece, but maybe it's more of you know we create these really cool programs around.

Chris Detzel: Those 10% 20% that you're talking about that do you want to engage that do you want to post that want to be part of you know reply or you know be part of a webinar or whatever right, you know blog on whatever you're trying to get them to do.

Chris Detzel: Is that what you mentioned that you're looking at some programs so highly interested on kind of what you're trying to do.

Nicole Saunders: yeah well so to be clear, you know when we think about that 80 or 90% of people that don't log in much and i'll tell you that my husband is the same way, like I love talking about can you manage with him because he uses communities, all the time.

Chris Detzel: that's right yeah.

Nicole Saunders: He does not have username on most of the Communities, he uses, but he will not buy something unless he has read.

Nicole Saunders: in depth.

Nicole Saunders: reviews and forum conversations and things like that so that's a really important audience right and it's not to discount them or poo poo them.

Nicole Saunders: And you got to think about them in terms of things like seo and navigate ability of content and how to make it easy for them to find things.

Nicole Saunders: But as far as where you should really focus your efforts as as a community manager and on your Community strategy.

Nicole Saunders: you're going to get a lot more sort of bang for the buck, if you will, by focusing on those top really active users and keeping them really engaged because again they're the ones that are helping produce all the content that other 80 and 90% are reading.

Nicole Saunders: And so yeah there's there's a couple of different ways to do this, and I think one of the most important ones, is what is totally thought of is like a Community champion Program.

Nicole Saunders: People have different names for this, but it's basically.

Nicole Saunders: How you identify and recognize.

Nicole Saunders: Those people who are the most active most passionate the users, that are helping answer other people's questions without.

Nicole Saunders: You know.

Nicole Saunders: You going in and saying hey Joe you know throw you a hoodie if you answer this question.

Nicole Saunders: Rather they're just doing it out of you know intrinsic motivation and and sort of coming from an altruistic place of.

Nicole Saunders: Believing in the value of the Community and wanting to give back to it and so zendesk we call this group, our Community moderators like I said different companies and organizations have different names sometimes it's branded.

Nicole Saunders: Things like that, but but for us that has been a real key those people are like the heart and soul of the Community and.

Nicole Saunders: So I think about like some of the different components of these kinds of programs, and you know, the first one, obviously, is.

Nicole Saunders: How do you recognize them in the Community, do you give them a badge is there a hall of fame or a profile page do you have.

Nicole Saunders: Like a Community newsletter where you can highlight these people and interview them and really sort of lift them up and call out.

Nicole Saunders: The fact that they're being generous with their time and with their knowledge, these people are also typically going to be the ones that have a lot of knowledge and so it's helpful for other users.

Nicole Saunders: to know when they're interacting with these folks hey i'm interacting with somebody who's kind of an expert, you know this isn't just kind of a big deal, and it means something that they're.

Chris Detzel: they're responding to maintain your current a little bit of peer to peer networking.

Chris Detzel: To you know.

Chris Detzel: exactly they know who they.

Chris Detzel: Are and they know that they're from this company or whatever right.

Nicole Saunders: yeah and that's The thing is, you know communities are all about connecting users to one another.

Nicole Saunders: Especially in brandon communities, which is you know sort of the space that you and I are both in and there's a lot of brand to user connection in most communities and.

Nicole Saunders: That tends to be the easier motion for most of us because, like.

Nicole Saunders: company will know how to do marketing they know how to engage an audience they know how to do that broadcast piece.

Nicole Saunders: they've got success folks that know how to go in and engage customers, but how you connect customers to one another, is is the more challenging piece, and so, these are the programs that often do that and a lot of the customers are connecting with those top corey users.

Chris Detzel: This this is highly interesting to me because i'm building it's kind of our first I call it rewards recognition gamification to get to you know kind of this super user program over time right.

Chris Detzel: You know our Community is really new, but I think you know.

Chris Detzel: To see the people do like swag and all that stuff so i'm building all that at out, but I do want to get to where you're talking about to where you know users are now moderating.

Chris Detzel: The for us the zendesk communities right and they're they're the ones answering questions are the ones saying no you can't do you know I don't know whatever they're doing you know but they're kind of the important people that you have to highlight so i'm interested in your.

Chris Detzel: did what i'm saying is keep going Nicole because.

Chris Detzel: You know.

Chris Detzel: say more things because it's music to my ears because i'm building that out to.

Nicole Saunders: ya know well, so one you know when we think about gamification.

Nicole Saunders: I think everybody knows that gamification is important right like.

Nicole Saunders: yeah who doesn't love getting a little badges I cannot believe the amount of power that my apple Watch has over me when i'm like.

Nicole Saunders: trying to get my seventh workout in a row, to get that cool badge right.

Chris Detzel: yeah yeah.

Nicole Saunders: But there are limitations to Internet cookie points you know it'll it helps remind people to come back it's a nice dopamine boost.

Nicole Saunders: Most people probably aren't sitting around in the morning being like oh I can't wait to go to the Community to answer questions I get my like blue star badge.

Nicole Saunders: One of the keys.

Chris Detzel: Maybe if maybe thinking about getting their blue star batch tomorrow, I was like if I do this tomorrow, then I get started okay.

anyways.

Nicole Saunders: But I think one of the things that's important in design is making sure that those rewards are meaningful right and not just that they're fun and they're interesting they bring you back.

Nicole Saunders: But that they help both of the people that received them, as well as the other people that observe those badges understand and give them context right.

Nicole Saunders: What does it mean to have done 500 posts for to be a top most voted person.

Nicole Saunders: That tells you something about that person's level of expertise about their ability to help others that kind of thing, and so I think that when you're designing those gamification systems, you know fun is absolutely a big part of it.

Nicole Saunders: Sure, the other piece should be how it helps give context to be you're engaging within the Community.

Nicole Saunders: And then I actually did a presentation at one of the one of these virtual conferences that we've done during the pandemic a little while back.

Nicole Saunders: i'm all about how we kind of launched our moderator program and I called it on a shoestring budget because at the time we didn't have a huge budget for swag or things like that, and obviously we weren't flying people to conferences or.

Nicole Saunders: Although we read plans to that year that got derailed pretty quickly um.

Nicole Saunders: But thinking about you know what are the things that bring value for those people that can thank them and keep them engaged, because this is one of the keys that i've seen over time, is that.

Nicole Saunders: There are people that will come in and they'll like join the Community and go gangbusters for a month.

Chris Detzel: And like yeah bunch of.

Nicole Saunders: Friends, and then they fall off the face of the earth.

Chris Detzel: yeah.

Nicole Saunders: And so, where these programs can be helpful as sort of grabbing those people that are really active and saying hey.

Nicole Saunders: Why don't you keep being active at a sustainable level and we're going to throw you some perks and some benefits for doing that and encourages them to continue that so but I think one of the key things sustainable level.

Nicole Saunders: Let me come in another hundred posts.

Nicole Saunders: don't ask them to keep doing 100 posts, a month ask them.

Nicole Saunders: You know.

Chris Detzel: Can you stop there i'll get somebody else to do that.

Nicole Saunders: Like because they're gonna burn out.

Nicole Saunders: yeah but you know so it's sort of interesting because I was talking with an executive about this, and they were asking me, you know.

Nicole Saunders: Should we should be giving people monetary benefits is that what it takes to get people to.

Nicole Saunders: Whether it's answering questions in the Community or leading a meetup and and what I said was you know you want to identify those people.

Nicole Saunders: Who are intrinsically motivated from the get go the people that are already engaging they're already sharing their knowledge, because those are the ones that are going to stick around and continue to provide quality.

Nicole Saunders: Now there is a place where you.

Nicole Saunders: Start sort of continuing to buoy that and keep them rolling with some additional perks and things like that, but when you're first starting out you don't want to just be throwing money at people.

Chris Detzel: Right, I agree.

Nicole Saunders: They won't they won't stick around and they won't be as authentic and their engagement with you.

Chris Detzel: Maybe it's in you tell me and the way I kind of think certainly you have swag and stuff that I think that's partly important especially to kind of.

Chris Detzel: You know, get people somewhat excited about, but that doesn't last long me how many hats or shirts or whatever, can you make you know to to one person, you know what I mean so.

Nicole Saunders: Totally we and we ran into that we did um.

Nicole Saunders: Participation contest with our moderators several times about twice a year reading this contest and saying hey everybody that does you know 20 responses to other users gets a T shirt and.

Nicole Saunders: If we hit our stretch goal, then everybody's going to get a hoodie and things like that, and eventually people were like you know guys I have like a week's worth of.

Nicole Saunders: clothing like that doesn't really motivate me anymore, and that was a good lesson for for the team to learn that, like there is a limit to how much swag keep.

Nicole Saunders: hearing about stuff and then you.

Nicole Saunders: have more meaningful benefits around it.

Chris Detzel: yeah I agree i'm i'm running to that now, I mean, I have some awesome swag and people were excited but now i'm creating some really cool swag but you know long term i've got to think of other ways to.

Chris Detzel: To you know engage these folks and and and reward and recognize them and I, like some of the things that you said, and it was more around.

Chris Detzel: What one it just just recognizing like like if somebody is doing this thing a lot, you know recognize that person that they're doing that maybe it's in a newsletter maybe it's something else, so that you know people know.

Chris Detzel: You know and that's that's all that is is recognition, you know people want to be recognized for what they're doing you know, and you know it could be.

Chris Detzel: And you tell me, but you know I think its potential access to you know certain people within your organization right could be a pm, or it could be.

Chris Detzel: You know the chief customer officer or the CEO you know, maybe you have a little bit of access, you get 10 of those people in, and we have like Conference a.

Chris Detzel: conference call with our CEO and you just have that special access because you're these.

Chris Detzel: people that are special to our Academy, whatever that is but it doesn't have to be stuff just spending money on all the time, some once a year, you do hey.

Chris Detzel: You know you're you're in the club and and you're going to want to talk to our CEO once a year, you know do these things, maybe it's five seven things that you can do that's not necessarily rewarded by you know things but in addition have those things.

Nicole Saunders: I don't know really I mean it is all about recognition and access those tend to be the two levers that we can pull and so when I think of recognition, you know stuff in the Community.

Nicole Saunders: Are there things that they can go put on their linkedin or their resume can you create those kinds of credentials.

Nicole Saunders: Imagine that we did is.

Nicole Saunders: We started doing after somebody was in our moderator program for a year of consecutive activity we can read a review for them on their linkedin and say like hey this person has been a member of our Community.

Nicole Saunders: Nice super knowledgeable they're really good writers, you know and that's us calling out something that other professionals can see on their profile, but I think your point about access is really great.

Nicole Saunders: Because you know that is one of one of the key things, and so one of the things we do is we let our moderators each month, they get to vote on what product area they're interested in hearing about, and then we set up a call.

Nicole Saunders: And anybody that's been active that month.

Nicole Saunders: gets to come in and get a little sneak peek into what product managers are looking at and gets to ask them some questions and and that kind of thing.

Nicole Saunders: And to your point, you know you can start to create.

Nicole Saunders: Even more levels of that you know, maybe there's a once a year, everybody that has a certain threshold get to go have lunch with the CEO or zoom lunch or something.

Nicole Saunders: yeah there's there's different ways that you can create that.

Nicole Saunders: We also started looking at things we've we've kind of leveraged all of the stuff we have internally, as far as people need access to and now we're starting to get things like.

Nicole Saunders: What are other needs that people in that program have are there other professional resources, we can connect them to you know, probably.

Nicole Saunders: pay for a cool coaching session on something and somebody come in and talk about everybody can up level their linkedin or.

Nicole Saunders: Are there other topics that are really relevant to them and it's sort of interesting, I find myself looking at things that i'm trying to do to level up my team professional development standpoint say okay well, can we do something similar for.

Nicole Saunders: Our awesome people in the Community and.

You know.

Nicole Saunders: And, and for us it's because so much of the drive for people is building up that professional expertise and things that make them better at work and so we're trying to understand like.

Nicole Saunders: What are ways we can help support that and facilitate that, and you know I think a lot of people get daunted by the idea of like oh man, I need a budget, so I can buy all this swag and I.

Nicole Saunders: can send people food, and I can you know again like once you're back to traveling in a fly them into the Office for a visit thanks there's actually a lot of things that you can do that are valuable that don't cost a ton of money or that you can do that a really scalable.

Nicole Saunders: Like bringing you know, having a special workshop or having some of those access points and that kind of thing.

Chris Detzel: She and I just think using the digital tools that you know, like like you said, I mean.

Chris Detzel: anybody can do a webinar anybody can write a linkedin thing you know, like you said, these are scalable kinds of things, how do you.

Chris Detzel: So something that sort of freaks me out, as I have to hire somebody to help me build out the program because one of the one I can't do everything right like i'm not you know.

Chris Detzel: super smart on every single piece of thing and Community right, so you have to find those experts to kind of.

Chris Detzel: kind of do that kind of thing like you know your thing might be content writing, and all this other stuff like you mentioned before, but one of the things you've never done before was.

Chris Detzel: kind of build out a super user program does that even mean, how do you even do that, what does that look like you know.

Chris Detzel: But as you kind of start looking at that do you feel like your bill adequately you guys, have you know four or five people on your Community staff.

Chris Detzel: So you know, but I know they're doing a bunch of other things do you have somebody that is resource to help you do that, and you know what does that look like you know to you.

Nicole Saunders: yeah no that's a great question and I think it kind of harkens back to that thing that we've talked about I think a couple times now we're.

Nicole Saunders: Because there are good communicators and we're like wear all the hats people and do all of the things and as Community is starting to become a bigger and bigger part of businesses there's a recognition that it takes.

Nicole Saunders: You a full team of people with specialized skills in different areas to do things so what I did it might seem one of my top priorities was hiring a senior manager to run user programs, so we actually have three programs that we work with in the zendesk communities, we have our.

Nicole Saunders: moderators which is those like.

Nicole Saunders: super users in the forums.

Nicole Saunders: And we're currently working on launching or sort of relaunching the other two one is user groups, so those of us use their lead meetups and are like other people call like a chapter Program.

Nicole Saunders: And then the third is working with our customer marketing team and building out a customer advocacy function.

Nicole Saunders: And so I have a senior manager who's overseeing those three programs and the intention that we're working towards is building out a team where he's got one or two people.

Nicole Saunders: Working on each of those programs, because, of course, as they scale, you know to your point, you need to spend a lot of attention on it, and I saw another another.

Nicole Saunders: been playing around on linkedin a lot lately.

Nicole Saunders: I suppose that David spanks did.

Nicole Saunders: where he he you repost it an old tweet That said, you know Community isn't built by the post is built by the comments.

Chris Detzel: Right so like how.

Nicole Saunders: How you respond and then somebody else retweeted it and they're captured was like you know communities built by doing unsalable things right things that don't scale and it's because really what they're calling out there is that you have to be high touch.

Nicole Saunders: up front.

Nicole Saunders: To build these things and.

Nicole Saunders: that's why.

Nicole Saunders: that's you know, to bring this full circle that's why those top 20% of users is so important, you got to be really high touch with a small group of people.

Nicole Saunders: yeah so that they can go be high touch with broader groups of people, because you as a community manager are never going to be able to reach 10,000 people yourself you're going to be able to reach.

Nicole Saunders: 100 people yourself and and those hundred are going to help you reach out to that 10,000 or whatever your your numbers are.

Nicole Saunders: it's and so.

Nicole Saunders: Having those things like staffed effectively.

Chris Detzel: Now it's very well said, you know something I do tell people, though, is is that you know the CSM so when you think of a CSM they're super high touch right they have 2030 people.

Chris Detzel: Companies that they might you know interact with and that's a lot of people to spend that high perch I tell people and you brought another aspect but I always tell people look I have thousands of customers potentially right like.

Chris Detzel: You know, and so, although you know it's just me I but I can't effectively, you know reach those thousands of people, you know, unless I have other.

Chris Detzel: People with it so you're talking more about the Community themselves at 20% 10% to really help you scale that right answer the questions and do a bunch of other shit.

Chris Detzel: That you create the programs that allow them to do all that other shit right and incentivizing them and that kind of stuff so I mean that's that's very well said I really liked I mean it was.

Nicole Saunders: Thank you.

Nicole Saunders: I think of it is is building community from the inside out right first Arthur like you gotta have a really solid Community team.

Nicole Saunders: And then they build out these programs.

Nicole Saunders: And those programs engage those top 20% and the top 20% are really what helps you do all of the rest and that's, not to say that, as a community manager you're not paying attention to that bigger picture you know we're constantly on the zoom in and out.

Nicole Saunders: What do you have to have those levels of things, because to your point, you can only reach out to so many people in a day or in a week and you can only have meaningful conversations with so many people.

Nicole Saunders: So you have to sort of be able to do that in levels and layers and scale it.

Chris Detzel: Will you do so, to get a little off target topic sorry about that, but.

Nicole Saunders: No worries came to my mind.

Chris Detzel: is so you know, for me, being a team of wine, and so I know you've had to deal with this in the past, and I know you have to still deal with is just even with having a bigger team.

Chris Detzel: is just so much to do so when I think of Community I think I do think of you know, user groups, and you know programs that allow your.

Chris Detzel: customers and partners or users to get the most out of the product super user programs, you know.

Chris Detzel: Events and there's a lot of things to do right there's and then I you know, even if it's recently just had our scope, and you know.

Chris Detzel: The positive as people continue to talk about Community within our organization and how important it is and it's great you know I think I did a really good job there, but.

Chris Detzel: Sometimes you know, like somebody was like Chris I continue to tell you about user groups and our customers really want user groups and everything else i'm like.

Chris Detzel: that's great, but you know it's not in my plan this year and this I don't have a resource or budget, and you know well, we can easily get together, you know and just throw as like.

Chris Detzel: yeah we can easily get together and get somebody you know people to show up at an event I could probably get 30 people no problem, but how do you scale it and how do you make it continuous and how do you show the value.

Chris Detzel: Of those kinds of things today that's not my budget let's look at it in q3, but it was like you feel bad because I know that's a huge program that's going to drive a lot of really cool stuff.

Chris Detzel: But I mean, I have no like i've got it I own too much already to go in and do something else you know what I mean and so.

Chris Detzel: yeah I don't know if you get some of that too so i'm sure you do oh 100% I mean, I have a team of six and they're still.

Nicole Saunders: Constantly things that we have to say no to you and things that were like that is a great idea, and it would be super impactful it would do this year.

Nicole Saunders: So, think about that you know one other teams in the company probably say no to stuff all the time.

Nicole Saunders: So how many times have you gone out and said, you know hey creative team, I need to redesign my homepage and they're like yeah not a priority.

Chris Detzel: Here sorry.

Chris Detzel: So.

Nicole Saunders: I think that is Community managers, you know we're really empathetic people, and we want.

Nicole Saunders: To help, we want to support things.

Nicole Saunders: And we're good at juggling a lot of things at once, I mean that's part of why most of us get into Community because we like how dynamic, it is.

Nicole Saunders: But you do have to get comfortable saying no and I think like one of the smartest things you said right there was, I need these resources, I need this kind of budget and I don't have it right now.

Nicole Saunders: yeah and you know, making it really clear for people like yeah absolutely I want to launch user groups i've written up a whole plan for it, and as soon as that you know we're ready to prioritize the resources we need will make it happen.

Nicole Saunders: But I think one of the biggest mistakes and organization can make is to spin things up without having those things in place, because as soon as you start you're making a promise to your customers.

Nicole Saunders: yeah and if you're not able.

Nicole Saunders: To through on it and maintain it that's worse than just not having.

Nicole Saunders: It.

Chris Detzel: Because I guess you know people throw a lot of tactics out there that they think is good and everything else, and then people just kind of hang on to it, oh yeah yeah.

Chris Detzel: Something that i've stopped that I started this year to do it gets you know first it's.

Chris Detzel: For me, it was about building the Community right like getting people in the Community building the Community itself, you know all that kind of stuff now it's about.

Chris Detzel: Thinking strategically about we have people in community, we still need to make it grow, but you know what are the programs that are going to allow it to grow and what's the least.

Chris Detzel: What is the most bang for my buck at the minute right like you know, for example, I am started like I said, trying to build this rewards recognition gamification program which will lead to a super user program potentially right like.

Chris Detzel: But I did tell the organization is.

Chris Detzel: That I mean that's my plan that's what i'm going to do, also my plan in q3 is that I get a headcount if I don't get this headcount didn't say like this, but basically said that you know I mean I can't do it, you know.

Chris Detzel: i'll continue to do whatever i'm already doing and that's, all I can do, I can I run this program will be ready to go when that person comes up and i'll have to do is just run it, you know what I mean.

Chris Detzel: Because i'm building it in everything else, I can make the time for that, but i'm not going to run it as another program and if somebody wants to now do a user group Program.

Chris Detzel: I need a resource, I need a budget and I need a plan, I need to plan for that right like I need to know exactly what that's gonna look like right, so I think that's an important pieces.

Chris Detzel: As you kind of look at these select 20% and 10% is you know you have to build programs for them, but you also have to say notice, some of these programs that.

Chris Detzel: You know you just can't do unless you know the company really wants to put forth the money show me the money is I don't know if you guys heard Scott talked about last week but.

Chris Detzel: You know you got to show us the money, yes I got to show the value and everything else is always Roi all that kind of stuff you know but.

Chris Detzel: i'm starting to say no, but it's more of I mean it's great that we should do it, I agree, but how are we going to do it, you know and how do we sustain it that's the key.

Chris Detzel: is throwing one or two things out there, you know just doing it it's not helpful it's not doesn't move the needle anywhere It just shows that you can do it, and then you don't want to lose it, you know what I mean like.

Nicole Saunders: The key there is.

Nicole Saunders: i'll do a pilot.

Nicole Saunders: yeah I will run one user group, I can manage one myself.

Nicole Saunders: And i'm going to do a pilot and we're going to show how it would work.

Nicole Saunders: and show them value and then say all right, we did a pilot was super successful we're showing value want to scale this here's what that takes.

Chris Detzel: You know you're so you're always bring it around so smart Okay, I like when I was like one of our first conversation right was.

Nicole Saunders: Third, talking about.

Nicole Saunders: show what we can do.

Nicole Saunders: And then go ask for the money, but the key is like.

Nicole Saunders: that's where these communications it's so important for us all to build those skill sets of how to think strategically and articulate that strategy, so you can go and say i'll do the pilot i'll show you the value.

Nicole Saunders: And then to scale it here's what we're going to need, and if we can't get those things I can't scale it i'm a team of one i've got you know all.

Chris Detzel: These other responsibilities like it.

Nicole Saunders: And it is so important that we do it right right i'm not going to like try to throw it out there and wing it.

Nicole Saunders: That way, you can't do that and.

Chris Detzel: I like that a lot.

Chris Detzel: And i'm glad you brought around to that is okay, you know we can try it and then you know and then you'll show some success and you show what success looks like you'll.

Chris Detzel: you'll get people to write down shit you know to say yeah This is all gonna we're gonna do this again oh my God is so valuable, why was the value well because it talked to my peers and we've learned how to do this better, and you know that kind of stuff and and.

Chris Detzel: I like it actually he made me think a little differently than saying just now.

Nicole Saunders: yeah well you know, and I mean this is it's always a back and forth right, and I think that's really good also collaborating.

Nicole Saunders: we've had some programs, where we really want to do something we don't have the additional headcount for it, and so I said i'll tell you what CSM.

Nicole Saunders: We can launch a user group for your book of business or your group of customers, but i'm going to need you to commit to leading six of those meetups this year i'm going to you to commit to doing these things.

Nicole Saunders: That don't have the resources on my team, but if you want to collaborate and that's actually been a really great way for us.

Nicole Saunders: To start to build some things out while we're waiting on headcount to be.

Nicole Saunders: available or waiting on budget to come through something so yeah and you can kind of run those pilots and you can do through like a minimal version of it and lean into other resources that are available in the company, the caveat there being, you know you want to make sure.

Nicole Saunders: you're still asking for those resources with your team, because if somebody else gets re prioritize you don't want to be left.

Nicole Saunders: holding the bag.

Chris Detzel: I agree, and the thing is with CSM is their accounts are always changing right so.

Chris Detzel: And there's new people coming in and out all the time, and I mean, I think that is in organizations period so it's not just picking on CSM.

Chris Detzel: You can all look at some of those roles of those engagement type to the 20% 10% whatever.

Chris Detzel: You want to say, but is when you look at staffing that and you actually get the person to do it, you know so somebody in your case running the user groups and some other stuff.

Chris Detzel: What does that person look like you know, does it have to be somebody that is extremely knowledgeable about how to run it or is it just depend, or you know what did you look for and what are your thoughts there.

Nicole Saunders: definitely look for people that had experience doing it before.

Nicole Saunders: yeah um you know somebody that's been through the trials and tribulations and learn some of the lessons on the ground.

Nicole Saunders: Anyone you talk you're going to have sort of a different mix of.

Nicole Saunders: Experience I ended up with something that had a lot of experience in an advocacy program and less so with either groups.

Nicole Saunders: But was able to articulate how that knowledge they have was really transferable and how they could leverage it to run both kinds of programs.

Nicole Saunders: I think, as they hire specialists to start delegating the individual programs to you they're gonna look for people that are really in that niche.

Nicole Saunders: And what's great is you know not only restarting specializations of rules but i'm starting to see a lot of specialization of training programs to you're seeing things.

Chris Detzel: Like.

Nicole Saunders: You know, come searcy school and stuff.

Nicole Saunders: Oh yeah but they're starting to put out education that isn't just general Community management, but that speak specifically to things like Community operations or.

Nicole Saunders: User programs or something like that, so I hope we continue to see that happen in the industry, and I imagine that we will, because we're all starting to recognize.

Nicole Saunders: You know hey the person that's really good at picking out how to support our customers in the Community.

Nicole Saunders: might be really different from the person is really good at figure out how to get chapter leaders engaged and running meetups and that might be really different from the person that does webinars really effectively, and so you got to start hiring for those specific skill sets.

Nicole Saunders: i'm looking for people that can bring that expertise into the Program.

Chris Detzel: I like that that's it that's a really good answer.

Chris Detzel: Because you know, as I kind of look at my next higher you know my my thought was I was going to call him like a Community engagement manager, you know basically just Community manager.

Chris Detzel: But you know I think you mentioned and even.

Chris Detzel: Elizabeth mentioned on the last last appears over beers you know you just.

Chris Detzel: depends on the person try, but I know you mentioned that you really like the operational person that you hired sort of wished.

Chris Detzel: It was kind of a hard one to say go for that one first or not, you know so it's it's but it's it saved your life in a way, or at least kind of make your life a lot easier.

Chris Detzel: You know, to yeah so.

Nicole Saunders: I think you know when you're in the early days, the first couple hires have to be generalists yes, you know you're going to need somebody else you can also help wear multiple hats.

Nicole Saunders: But really it's like when a team starts going round about three or four, then you can really start to specialize and kind of hone in on those things.

Chris Detzel: yeah now, it makes sense any other programs that you're you said to mention one of them any.

Nicole Saunders: So yeah so like are three primary insurance we've got our Community moderators which is really specifically like users who are knowledgeable and active in our online forum and want to help other people there.

Nicole Saunders: Okay, and so it's a very specific like.

Chris Detzel: yeah.

Nicole Saunders: They have knowledge and they're really active in a certain space, then we've also got our user groups and we're looking at chapter leaders it's sort of that top 20% right, and those are users who want to lead a meetup in their area.

Nicole Saunders: yep or because we're now in this wonderful hybrid world and can do some things virtually to.

Nicole Saunders: we've got like we've got a user group wanting next week, this just for Community managers that use zendesk Community platform.

Chris Detzel: And flow cool.

Nicole Saunders: they're going to start having a user group that's going to meet on a regular basis, and so we're getting.

Chris Detzel: it so easy yes.

Nicole Saunders: there's a reason that, with our pilot we're starting.

Nicole Saunders: At one reason.

Nicole Saunders: In house experts, it turns out.

Nicole Saunders: But you know we're starting to get something like more like role based you know really good one for knowledge managers for support managers.

Nicole Saunders: Now those people might also be part of the Austin chapter or the Chicago chapter and like go the in person meetups locally and then go to the virtual meetups.

Nicole Saunders: For that sort of role or persona based kind of thing so that's our user groups, and then the third is that customer advocacy piece and.

Nicole Saunders: Somebody internally, as necessary, why do we have all these different programs and it's like well you end up with users who come in.

Nicole Saunders: And they have varying levels of knowledge, but they're enthusiastic they want to participate and they want to be leaders and you got a sort of channeled in different directions, depending on how they want to express that.

Nicole Saunders: You know, we.

Nicole Saunders: We get our moderators who are super knowledgeable in the product and that's like part of what is required to do that role.

Nicole Saunders: But a lot of those people like are not super extroverted they don't want to be on camera they don't want to lead an event, they just want to share their knowledge in the form yeah.

Nicole Saunders: yeah then you've got other people who are super enthusiastic and they really want to connect with other people.

Nicole Saunders: But maybe they're not like super technically.

Nicole Saunders: savvy or maybe they're kind of new or something those are great chapter leaders right if they're like.

Nicole Saunders: They love organizing stuff and they want to lead a group of people connect funnel them that way, and then there are the people they're like.

Nicole Saunders: really care about connecting with other users as much but i'm really enthusiastic about the product, and I want to like share my story, and I want to help others.

Nicole Saunders: Through that kind of a thing or I want to just do an occasional thing I don't want to have to go on the forums, all the time I don't want to be meetups all the time.

Nicole Saunders: But i'd love to like once or twice this year.

Nicole Saunders: speak at an event or something and that's where that advocacy program comes in right and how do you sort of get people signed up to be shining the spotlight.

Nicole Saunders: And so, by offering these different things we can find different ways to engage people and we started, you know talking about how you've got your 80 or 90% and it can be.

Nicole Saunders: kind of a wasted effort, sometimes to try to be convincing those readers into active users.

Nicole Saunders: But one of the other ways that you can expand is by having different offerings for those active users, you can start to engage sort of more.

Nicole Saunders: Sub personas of those active people were like if you all, you have is the moderator program well now that excludes like in our case anyone it's not super product knowledgeable.

Nicole Saunders: We don't have a super user program for you, but by adding user groups and by adding an advocacy Program.

Nicole Saunders: All of a sudden now there's new avenues that we've unlocked for people who are enthusiastic, even if they don't engage in the forums or don't have the product knowledge or something like that.

Chris Detzel: I love how you're engaging us users, the way they want to be engaged, I mean, I think we talked about this in the very beginning is.

Chris Detzel: Not one way is going to you know satisfy everybody, so you have to create programs to allow them to engage.

Chris Detzel: The way they feel comfortable doing right, and then you start doing that you'll see that 20% you know really just I mean you're hitting on all cylinders right like you're creating some great content.

Chris Detzel: Online Community crane some great peer to peer networking with you know the chapters and everything else and user groups and then advocacy I mean people are just talking about your brand like crazy and you know.

Chris Detzel: Making marketing and the organization to happy for all the things that you're created and and all those things sit under you right under the Community director.

Nicole Saunders: I love you do they do, I will say that you know, like, I have a super again is a collaboration with our customer marketing team and.

Nicole Saunders: it's actually been in this amazing thing where it's a totally co owned Program.

Nicole Saunders: Like 5050 and at first, I was like oh my God, how are we going to govern this like how are we going to explain this and who's budget does it sit under and I was like.

Nicole Saunders: You know let's let's split the cost split split the responsibilities let's divvy it up and and it's actually worked out really well and it's it's really showed how can you can kind of be that connective tissue throughout the organization.

Chris Detzel: super cool yeah.

Chris Detzel: it's so not easy but it's it's a cool.

Chris Detzel: yeah no I mean it's never easy and.

Chris Detzel: Just, just as you kind of talk, I mean everybody does a little bit differently.

Chris Detzel: But you know that's that's what peers over beers is for is to kind of get that out there, a little bit.

Chris Detzel: And you know I appreciate, you really sharing I mean some really detailed information on you know your engagement strategy or you know the way you're engaging your 20% 10% I don't know I mean maybe it is 20 which is.

Nicole Saunders: Whatever percent.

Nicole Saunders: The small bucket of yeah.

Chris Detzel: yeah I just think you know, hopefully, my bosses don't share all this, you know the 20% always sick 10.

Nicole Saunders: Well, I mean that's like I said I really like Harry said it's like it's somewhere between four and 20% right and it's going to reside.

Nicole Saunders: Depending on what you're doing.

Nicole Saunders: yeah i'm.

Chris Detzel: Good point.

Nicole Saunders: The key point is just that, like there's going to be a very small number of people that are going to really drive your program and so.

Nicole Saunders: The most effective place for you to focus is on that that small group of really passionate people and fill that out and that's going to have compounding effects and it's going to just help your whole community grow.

Chris Detzel: You know it'd be interesting call next time is a something around like metrics and how you kind of.

Chris Detzel: Look at what value means to the organization, when you present like hey these user groups doing this, you know what is it that you're.

Chris Detzel: Your gold on and what are you trying to do, and then maybe even go to each section to say you know i'm not saying you give us your metrics but give us ideas of what metrics can look like you know, and what is bringing.

Chris Detzel: value to that because to me, you know look I can get a program up and running and doing amazing things but.

Chris Detzel: The harder part is to show the organization value right like if i'm doing this webinar program Well, we know that the webinar program is doing really well.

Chris Detzel: But how do we really know and what does it mean it's doing really well you know what I mean like and so.

Chris Detzel: My assumption is that you have some kind of I don't know if it's true Roi but you know it's something to share with your organization your leaders to continue to invest and show and is that is that fair we'll get into that but.

Nicole Saunders: yeah i'd love to talk about it, you know I think data is always plays interesting challenge arises, a big question but I definitely have spots on.

Nicole Saunders: But at a minimum what I would like to be reporting on and what I think people should report on you know it's always something you keep working toward the dialing in.

Chris Detzel: I like it well we'll talk about that next time well.

Chris Detzel: Nicole thanks for coming on to another peers over beers i'm Chris dazzle and.

Nicole Saunders: Nicole Sanders.

Nicole Saunders: thanks for having me Chris thanks.

Chris Detzel: me for stop on this thing.