Episode 083 - Special Guest Jake McKee - Dinner 5, User Testing and Onboarding

Chris Detzel: All right, well, welcome to another peers over beers i'm Chris Detzel so and we do have a special guest checking the key he's the founder of dinner five at jake mckee consulting I get that right jake.

Chris Detzel: You did absolutely.

Chris Detzel: sweet well, welcome to peers over beers.

Jake McKee: thanks for having me it's been a while, been a while coming.

Chris Detzel: it's been a while coming, because actually I don't think we've ever had you on piers over beers and really glad that you get to come on tell us a little bit about this dinner five thing because that's how.

Chris Detzel: it's not really how we met but that's i've been to a couple of those and really joint dinner five.

Jake McKee: yeah so i'll tell you just a little bit of background and story.

Jake McKee: is a way to set up what dinner five actually is because it's it's important to understand how it came to be as well.

Jake McKee: But you know i've been doing Community work in various forms, at companies like Lego and apple and for clients like Southwest and cancer treatment centers of America canon camera.

Jake McKee: You know bunch of bunch of people over the years in a bunch of different forms and fashions and you know, so I got 20 coming on 25 years of Community experience now right.

Chris Detzel: seems like a long.

Chris Detzel: Time.

Jake McKee: yeah I always joke that i've been doing, communities and sentiment convincing clients to put an email address and their website.

Jake McKee: That was.

Jake McKee: That was a hard sell back in the day right, what happens if people contact us well, did you respond that that conversation was literally when I had more than once.

Jake McKee: But after doing it this long you know, a couple years back.

Jake McKee: I had left two different.

Jake McKee: Events one one right after the other, and.

Jake McKee: And there was a lot of really great content, but it was all very targeted to the to the folks who were showing up, which were you know people had been in the industry, a few months, or maybe a few years.

Jake McKee: And I kept looking around and saying where's my peers right where were the other senior folks who've been doing this long time and.

Jake McKee: I was complaining, this is the first one was in October next one was in November and December I was sitting around two days after Christmas and.

Jake McKee: Telling a buddy of mine, you know my my trials and tribulations about all this, he said, well, what would you want to do, and I said man, I just want people to have as much experience as me sitting around my kitchen table with pizza and beers and talking Community dirt.

Chris Detzel: yeah.

Jake McKee: And he said well why don't you do that.

Jake McKee: I had exploded for a minute and I went oh yeah that's a good point.

Jake McKee: yeah Why would I do it and I had several conversations between the the return to work and that two days after Christmas conversation with my buddy Steve and.

Jake McKee: You know, had reached out to a few senior Community folks said hey would something like this, be of interest now and they all said yeah that's great.

Jake McKee: And I tried very hard to convince them to do it, nobody said sure i'll pick up the mantle They all said great when you start it i'll be happy to join us.

Jake McKee: yeah and I guess I got to start it now right.

Jake McKee: yeah so January 15 or something 20th somewhere in there, that that your.

Jake McKee: Had the dinner first dinner five, and it was in person did in person events for a year and then pandemic what i've been doing virtual events for the last two years, two plus years now, but you know five senior leaders that run Community programs.

Jake McKee: yep get together and in the cone of silence every event i've done has had some form of food at it, even in the early days, the pandemic.

Jake McKee: And you know nowadays we're doing virtual and i'm starting to plan back to some some amount of in person, but, honestly, the the virtual spit working really well but it's very small group.

Jake McKee: very intimate honest conversation and kind of in the in the cone of silence friend da type of environment and I designed them so that it's not competitive, so you don't have to people from competitive companies.

Jake McKee: You don't have to people from the same company, at the same one and everybody, I invite I talked to make sure I understand what their vibe is what their background is what their interests are so I can curate the group to make sure it's a really great conversation as you've experienced.

Chris Detzel: yeah I think i've been to three of them one was a virtual and i've been to to even Joe I live in Dallas and I drove to Austin to go to one stay the night in town so.

Chris Detzel: No, I there's there's a lot of value in it, you know some degree, I think I still talk to some of those folks and you know i'm always about networking Community people are pretty good at that kind of stuff sometimes right.

Chris Detzel: You know.

Jake McKee: People are, I think that.

Jake McKee: there's an interesting weird dynamic about the Senior Level folks but i'm still trying to put my finger on exactly but.

Jake McKee: I don't know if we've just been doing Community so long that trying to be part of Community for Community sake, is tough.

yeah.

Jake McKee: But it's it's a different dynamic with senior folks.

Jake McKee: than it is with more junior folks right, the more junior folks you mean you look at the cms chat that.

Jake McKee: You know this, the sequel chat you know the.

Jake McKee: All those there's a lot of activity there lot activity but it's a lot of you know more early on questions I won't say.

Jake McKee: Basic tough questions, but you know they're more early on in your career questions and you're not always, of course, but there's there's a lot of that and that's part of where you know, like our slack that's just for the dinner five alumni.

Jake McKee: yeah there's a lot of questions that get asked in there that are very big big questions.

Chris Detzel: yeah it's hard to solve problems yeah exactly they can only apply if you're running a program right.

Chris Detzel: yeah yeah.

Jake McKee: And who you reach out to because most of the time there's not a lot of other Community people in your company much less appear that understands Community challenges at a senior level at a director level right.

Chris Detzel: yeah so basically I guess the way it works and it's probably a good thing for our audiences, you know you just basically have five people together either virtual.

Chris Detzel: As of recent the last couple of years, at least, but doing some onsite stuff and just have a quick conversation around dinner and and and i'll tell you what the dinners that you do, or I mean a couple times this one do just sit there put some stuff.

Chris Detzel: had some wine, I mean it was just it was awesome like I kept what he does is really cool so you made it a really nice experience and.

Chris Detzel: You know, it was a lot of fun to really get to connect with leaders at the same level right, and you know as i've progressed in the years, even as a community leader like you find even later that those conversations are super important because a lot of things that you're not.

Chris Detzel: You might not know you'll run into so you know if I run into you know i've been talking to like Nicole Saunders as of late she's the director of Community at zendesk you know she's she's had that Community for five years and so she's grown a team, she is really skilled their community.

Chris Detzel: And so, she has a lot to offer so me connecting with her, even on peers over beers but you know, having those higher level conversations to figure out some things that I can go, do you know, in my own organization, because we have similar communities, if you will.

Chris Detzel: is just amazing you know what I mean so and then you're doing a great job of.

Chris Detzel: Facilitating those conversations getting those senior level type people.

Chris Detzel: Together, which I think is important because it's not always easy to find you know so and you've done a good job of finding those.

Jake McKee: yeah thanks I appreciate it you're part of my the events are free they're there they're sponsored by folks like vanilla forums and now bill higher logic they've been you know, an amazing.

Jake McKee: vanilla lodging.

Jake McKee: yeah exactly.

Jake McKee: Common room is also pitched in Southwest amplifier some really some some great folks right and.

Jake McKee: I couldn't do it without them, because the events are free, the price of admission, I always say and you've heard me say this.

Several times.

Jake McKee: Is is bringing others with you right because that's the whole goal here is to try and bring along people, people like us right.

Jake McKee: And the best way for me to help find those is making a you know, an impressive experience, then ask often people don't ask ask for the recommendation right.

Jake McKee: And you know it's it's been an interesting process for me because it's it's such a good reminder.

Jake McKee: that the reason I do these five event the five person events, because because that's where intimacy of compensation happens right.

Jake McKee: it's hard in a group of more than it's it's the Community numbers right 515 2550 hundred 50 at each one of these marks that knit the social dynamic changes dramatically.

Jake McKee: yeah you know and the difference between five people and 10 people doesn't seem like it's that big a deal numbers wise but it's the difference between a private conversation among friends and a group.

Jake McKee: yeah right and the moment it turns into a group is the moment that I started having to ask myself questions about can I share, how much can I share.

Jake McKee: You know, is somebody there's somebody in this group going to know my boss right they kind of bring that back you start asking all these questions that makes you kind of shut down as far as the depth of conversation.

Chris Detzel: Well, I think, maybe like if I was there I wouldn't care if my boss heard what I said, you know but.

Chris Detzel: When I would care about is, I think you get some this just me, so I think if the intimacy part right, you have a group of 100 hundred 50 it's great that there's 150 but.

Chris Detzel: you're just not going to have those really good one on one facilitated conversation, but a group of 100 people and yeah you can't get as intimate and you can't get as much stuff as as you would like you know what I mean, so I understand clearly and.

Jake McKee: Victor you don't have much time for yourself at all.

Jake McKee: Right yeah that's fine too.

Chris Detzel: yeah yeah, how do you get your.

Jake McKee: house going up exactly you know somebody those things are more for like presenting some stuff that might be interesting and.

Chris Detzel: different ways, you know but but I love it, I mean you're doing a great job and I applaud you, for you know continuing it for like three years now, or longer.

Jake McKee: or years yeah.

Chris Detzel: yeah so I mean I just thought when you first it was like I don't know but you've done a good job of getting sponsors to really help that and more a couple of them are Community sponsors right, you know and so it's cool stuff right.

Jake McKee: I love it yeah and I have to say, you know that's One of the interesting things about this.

Jake McKee: This whole process has been you know with with when I went to vanilla at the beginning of this process, said hey i've got this idea where you know common room has been one of the more recent additions this year to the sponsorship fold, you know when I when I told me to one of them.

Jake McKee: i've got this event it's only five people but it's the right fight people they both teams instantly went yeah Okay, we understand.

Jake McKee: yeah and I talked to other folks that had a real hard time saying yes to the sponsorship, because they were saying well that's not enough numbers.

Jake McKee: yeah and I can't even though i'd say well yeah but 500 people funnels into five people that you want to talk to really.

Chris Detzel: yeah.

Jake McKee: or 5000 people funnel into five people you actually want to talk to you i'm just going to give you a decision makers in the first place.

Jake McKee: You know and and video and commentary both did a great job of of seeing that vision and I i'm really proud of that they've been along the journey with me you.

Chris Detzel: start thinking of some sponsors or something to help peers are not really.

Chris Detzel: push that at all, you know what I mean so.

Chris Detzel: anyways so I know there's a topic that we want to talk about today, besides inner five, which is a great topic and great thing that you're doing there, so why don't We talk a little bit about you kind of mentioned it and i'll let you explain it, how would that.

Jake McKee: yeah well, so one of the things that i've been.

Jake McKee: i've been noticing more lately is.

Jake McKee: Let me, let me rephrase it one of the things i'd like to see our.

Jake McKee: Industry do more of.

Jake McKee: Is is looking at are looking at our journeys right.

Jake McKee: We see this all the time when you look at you know when you talk to ux ui ux ui folks when you talk to marketing folks right there real big on your marketing folks love the touch point maps, you know that understand where where Am I communications hitting and all the right points right.

Jake McKee: which I learned yeah they're great, and I think you're one of the things that that.

Jake McKee: i'm seeing more of and i'm starting to spend more time on, so I do consulting right I come in i'm joking i'm the Mr Wolf for the Community industry you got a problem i'll become fix it.

Jake McKee: yeah and what what i'm seeing more and more as we try and fix those things is how much back to the basics need that need to take place right because, if your community is is struggling with engagement, for instance, just to pick that one that's a pretty common when right but it.

has more engagement.

Jake McKee: I start asking some basic questions with with new clients like How do people get into the Community in the first place.

Chris Detzel: Where do they come from.

Jake McKee: Where are they yeah well how do they go from okay you've got a customer community, how do they sign up.

Jake McKee: And I am.

Jake McKee: I am i'm always surprised and this isn't any one client already even my clients i'm hearing it from others as well that, even though some of those basic questions, or at least vague, if not unclear, all together, right.

Chris Detzel: What what.

Chris Detzel: Do they say because i'm interested in.

Chris Detzel: And if they don't really do get them, and you know, like.

Chris Detzel: I just i'm trying to understand like if you're building a Community it's it's not you build it, they have not going to come, it just doesn't happen, you have to tell people about your community and.

Jake McKee: I may even more fundamentally than that, I mean even.

Jake McKee: Looking at how does a yo how are you onboarding a new customer so let's say you get a new customer into the Community.

Jake McKee: yeah sorry, let me, let me rephrase that you get a new customer into your company.

Chris Detzel: yeah hmm.

Jake McKee: A lot, what are the emails that they get on board with.

Jake McKee: Do those emails are in the materials, maybe they even have physical paperwork, how much of that connects to Community how easy, is it for them to take a picture from a from an email that they get or document that they get and be introduced to the Community, the purpose of the Community.

Jake McKee: Had it sparks their interest to come over and login when they log in how easy, is it for them to actually go about logging in.

Chris Detzel: yeah.

Jake McKee: Right is there, you know, is there a delay there as you process stuff on the back end do they have your really young onerous overhead of your password requirements, is it easy to understand, you know that.

Jake McKee: you're getting an email verification and your your email verification system takes an hour two hours to actually send the emails out right.

Chris Detzel: I mean.

Chris Detzel: You know you look at I can't have your.

Chris Detzel: You know community is it, I mean most platforms that are halfway decent should have some of that baked in right.

Chris Detzel: Religious setting to be able to change it.

Chris Detzel: On a customer logs in send a direct email automatically you know you should have to be doing shit about that you know.

Jake McKee: You shouldn't.

Jake McKee: But do you know that you're that you're not right there's an assumption that everything's working like it is, and then you can't figure out why nobody's signing up nobody's logged in a second time until you discover.

Jake McKee: Our stats, and this is again this is kind of where you start to you have to start pulling these pieces apart.

Chris Detzel: yeah.

Jake McKee: On a really fundamental level because it's it's one thing to say my engagements not working, we need to add more content or onsite activities or do better Community management.

Jake McKee: But what i've been asking a lot more of lately is sure that's not untrue, but let's go let's start back a couple of steps before that.

Jake McKee: Look at your stats and if you're seeing people drop off between the first login and no second logins, why are they able to actually log in.

Jake McKee: Are there is that Stat telling you that they have completed the password creation process, which is the first step.

Jake McKee: Or is there some glitch in that process that makes it easy to drop out of the workflow.

Jake McKee: and never actually you're tagging them when they log in but they're not really logging because they never complete the password completion process, which means they have a fundamental inability to log in a second time.

Chris Detzel: yeah.

Jake McKee: But they have no password done right, and then you start saying Okay, now we gotta fix those fundamentals, in order to know what's actually happening in the Community right.

Chris Detzel: I agree with you, I mean, but I think that's Community management, one on one right like when I think of Fair enough, like you need to make sure.

Chris Detzel: You know your, if possible, people are engaged not everybody's going to engage in a certain way or engage the way you want to as a matter of fact, as you know.

Chris Detzel: Most people don't or if they do you know, maybe they're just learning stuff and that stuff you can look at you know, in general, on some of the back end of these Community platforms.

Chris Detzel: I do think you're I think that's absolutely right, so you know, a customer logs or a user logs into your community and doesn't.

Chris Detzel: Ever log in again and you're seeing a lot of that you know, maybe there's something there on.

Chris Detzel: You know, maybe they're not getting the email that they're supposed to so i'll give an example and it's a good point is when a user logs into the real to Community today they get an email automatically instantly it says hey thanks for registering for the real to community.

Chris Detzel: click here to activate your account boom click here, and then they click there and they go directly to the relative community and and they're logged in or they put their password and stuff like that and they're good to go right.

Chris Detzel: And then from there, we have kind of this I wouldn't call it 30 6090 days it's like a.

Chris Detzel: You know, every couple of days for the next at least two maybe three times they'll get an email say hey.

Chris Detzel: Thanks for creating your login here's things that you can do hey I see you haven't logged in and 10 days a lot, you know so there's kind of this journey that you push as well to kind of make sure you're engaging with the customer in an automated way you don't want to be doing this.

Chris Detzel: You know manually to every customer right, so I think that you know you have to create that journey to you know that's one tactic to push in a very important tactic.

Chris Detzel: And if none of those work something yeah maybe it's not launching maybe maybe your initial email isn't going out maybe these things aren't happening.

Chris Detzel: do some testing, you know, create a dummy login you know, create your gmail account you know, a new account login and create you know, make sure the process is working.

Chris Detzel: And if it doesn't, then you know there's something wrong, I mean there's all kinds of tests that you can do from that point, you know to to knock that out.

Jake McKee: yeah I think you're I think you're right, I think the magic word you just said is it's the testing part.

Jake McKee: yeah because honestly I think as an industry, and I will point to any one particular people.

Jake McKee: person or group or.

Jake McKee: Community because I think we all suffer from this in various forms, I don't think as an industry we do a good enough job of testing.

Jake McKee: I don't think we do enough job up front.

Jake McKee: of doing usability testing, as we design I don't think we do a good enough job at the yearly rotation saying okay it's it's the year mark let's go back and do another usability test.

Jake McKee: Think about the level of testing that e commerce sites do.

Jake McKee: Absolutely right, it is a daily activity in some cases, many cases they are tweaking things.

Jake McKee: regularly on our side, you know there's communities that are are successful don't get me wrong there's still successful.

Jake McKee: But they have never done usability testing, not before, not during that in five years in right they are making tweaks they're making improvements, but they haven't done the full blown let's put some users in front of a formal process.

Jake McKee: yeah understand this right.

Jake McKee: And, and you know rich mix in our buddy rich millington.

Jake McKee: posted something a couple weeks ago.

Jake McKee: Talking about the homepage design.

Jake McKee: Right and how.

Jake McKee: Most people have these Community homepage designs that are much more about welcome to the site when in reality.

Jake McKee: So many communities are destinations that are that people arrive at based on Google traffic.

Jake McKee: And the reason they get to the homepage is because they had a failure in that Google result right and so instead of a welcome to the experience but that needs to be as you clearly have had a problem, let me help you address that problem.

Chris Detzel: and

Jake McKee: And where you know that it was a brilliant insight and I think it was one that was really worth considering, you know what not just your homepage is one example, but you know how all these pieces working and that's.

Jake McKee: When I was at apple and we we overhauled, the design of the apple support community and one of the things that we realized was a huge massive vast majority of our traffic to the Community came directly from somebody searching something on Google.

Jake McKee: seo and yeah, and I mean we didn't we had organic signups sure, but realistically somebody had a problem that Google that.

Jake McKee: We did a great job of seo which bumped our results, up to the first or second result almost all the time and they click the button that show up at the site.

Jake McKee: And so the way that we redesigned that site and did our testing was to do Q amp a pairs right, so we did everything we could do to make sure that when somebody came they saw a big queue.

Jake McKee: With it with the question and a big a with the best answer right and there was a whole process of you know soul dancers, your mark dissolved marked as helpful.

Jake McKee: And apple recommends which we had a team in place to go mark stuff that they thought was good if nobody came back and market themselves.

Jake McKee: yeah bump bump those up above and beyond the rest of the answers in a design that seemed very compelling when you had four seconds to grab somebody's.

Jake McKee: Attention before this yeah, this is a bit go back to Google and start again right and our homepage.

Chris Detzel: scroll all the answers and stuff like that.

Chris Detzel: Right right.

Jake McKee: And you know even you know some a lot of when i've told this story before people said well yeah but you know lots of sites have the solid answer well yeah and now they're starting to move those up closer to the question.

Chris Detzel: yeah.

Jake McKee: But we, if you look at the site we specifically designed it to have a Q amp a pair design.

Jake McKee: So it wasn't wasn't hiding the other answers, but it was putting a huge focus from a design standpoint on the Q amp a That was the best day right.

Chris Detzel: yeah yeah back then they didn't have really awesome.

Chris Detzel: platforms to do all that stuff for you, so you had to develop all that stuff you know.

Jake McKee: We did develop development for that, but I think you're right it's video in theory it's Community management, one on one, but I don't think it is actually I think it's I think it's.

Jake McKee: worth of.

Jake McKee: Of this process.

Chris Detzel: To good point because I often think that I often think there's so much time and effort that like I worked for a product company, so we sell.

Chris Detzel: You know, to B2B companies a product right and they buy it and they use the product that kind of stuff and so as much time and effort as our digital marketing team or marketing team.

Chris Detzel: Digital team spends on the main website realty COM, I mean they'll spend lots and lots of money to get leads and spend lots and lots of money to have you know.

Chris Detzel: To get different people to do usability test to get different people do all this stuff for the main website, you know who they have to do Community radio.com Chris that's all and that's it.

Chris Detzel: At the moment, you know, like and they think that, so I think that it's a good point because I would love to have you know all this budget to do usability testing to do.

Chris Detzel: You know, to change up the website, from time to time to do some of the things that you talked about around you know, because now.

Chris Detzel: Since our Community is almost a year old you starting to get some really good seo right, you know because we've done a good job of the content but.

Chris Detzel: You know, and so over time it gets more and more, you know, over time, or 80% 70% seo organic seo and right now it's not there, but it's just started.

Chris Detzel: But then things I should be thinking about exactly what you're saying is people are going to get to our site through Google and when they click on a link.

Chris Detzel: would be really cool you know, to have that whole whether it's a blog or whether it's a Q amp a whatever it is.

Chris Detzel: One is where's the cta so because they can get the answer, so we need a good, clear.

Chris Detzel: cta because they're not logged in so can we potentially capture that one out of 100 people might log in.

Chris Detzel: You know, but if we don't make it easy for them they're not gonna log in they just get the answer and they go to is is are they getting the answer that they need, unlike your little thought around.

Chris Detzel: To have somebody go in there and just assume that this is best answer I like that, because I haven't been doing that, and you know the one of the tactics that I think is important is that best answer and getting people to put that in there, but it's a hard thing to get people to do.

Chris Detzel: said a lot of good things man, I like that I think that's you're probably right about these I mean I think about it, but I can't always do anything about it, you know.

Jake McKee: yeah and I think so there's there's several points in there to sort of pick up on, so one is that.

Jake McKee: That.

Jake McKee: That process of of when somebody comes to the site there's a clear cta call to action that moves them from here to there to there to there and that's my goal.

Jake McKee: yeah I don't know you know there's been a lot of part of a lot of Community developments even my own, which I haven't done a good enough job of the past of thinking about what is that journey, have we written that journey down.

Jake McKee: know we revisiting that journey on a regular basis to a make sure it's working because we've also built in the measurements in the process is to pay attention to whether that's working.

Jake McKee: and be if it's not working, what do we do about it, how do we improve that right, rather than just saying we've bought a platform it works, a certain way we put it in place now we're going to worry about the content management part of it, the engagement part of it right.

Jake McKee: yeah and and I think that's you know, putting this is the challenge to you to me to everybody, all of us and i've been trying to do this more with clients lately is say whatever our budget is let's set aside 30%.

Chris Detzel: on that.

Jake McKee: Testing right because we, when I see a lot of is, we have, if you have $100 of development, just to pick a nice non real number give $100 a development time to budget for for developing a platform we're spending $100 to get the platform in place.

Chris Detzel: yeah yeah.

Jake McKee: Bennett about $50 put the platform in place.

Jake McKee: Another $30 to test the hell out of it before, during and after and then saving that last $20 to make sure that when we get it wrong, we still have budget left to fix it.

Chris Detzel: Right yeah it depends on the budget without to get into particulars but you got to content budget right So if I think about what is the single most important thing I have to go do and it's building content, you know that is relevant engaging and all those things.

Chris Detzel: something you said in there.

Chris Detzel: kind of lost my flat because I thought it was a good one.

Chris Detzel: Around the usability stuff you know just keep going sorry.

Chris Detzel: I lost my train of thought on that.

Jake McKee: Well yeah you know i'm i'm always it's tough right because Community budgets, like you said you got just Chris that's cool.

Chris Detzel: yeah.

Jake McKee: I think I think this goes back to what we all talk about in some form, though, if you know there's a reason why.

Jake McKee: E commerce or marketing or the seo team has the budgets that they have and part of it's very simple.

Jake McKee: they've justified the outcome of those budgets spins so you know, in order, you know I I said I was going to do a thing, and I did that thing if you give me 20% more budget I can do 20% more output or 40% more output.

Jake McKee: Okay cool and then here's the way i'm going to prove that to you, and then I prove it to you.

Chris Detzel: And they have.

Jake McKee: on and on and back.

Chris Detzel: it's a very good point I think that's the exact way of how to handle that jake and I would my thought came back is.

Chris Detzel: A lot of times, is it is usability or I mean testing testing but it's also looking at the data around so if you're if you care about seo organic seo and all that kind of stuff the.

Chris Detzel: Positive is is that Google analytics is tracking all the things people are clicking on and so like i'll give an example is like the other day I was looking at.

Chris Detzel: The analytics and I saw that, for some reason there's this link that I go to when I click on it and or you know I.

Chris Detzel: it's like this error link and i'm like what the hell is this This is like over the last month and clicked on 100 times, but why what's going on.

Chris Detzel: And so, a lot of times whenever you go into the analytics and you find it easy, you can find hint of where people are having problems either in the login is the area in the.

Chris Detzel: You know in some part of the Platform, you know, and so you have to go dig to find those answers but positive is that.

Chris Detzel: The analytics are there, the data is there, and so you don't have to just blindly think oh that piece, so you do the testing, but you also look at.

Chris Detzel: what's working what's not through whatever analytics thing that yeah, but in this case for me and a lot of it is the Google analytics right, you know it's just look at that.

Chris Detzel: It tell you, you know don't you know go to your seo person say what the hell is this and then go to your platform people say hey what the heck is this, you know, like I don't.

Chris Detzel: If you don't know, and so I think you have to do a lot of research, a lot of focus and then fix it, you know, whatever that is too, because this.

Chris Detzel: 100 times in a month.

Chris Detzel: And it's going nowhere, you know that's a problem, why is it be clicked on 100 times a month who's who you know, maybe that's a user issue a problem, and if you fix it and maybe you get 10% of those people back and they actually able to login or do whatever they're trying to do you know.

Jake McKee: yeah and I think so several several things to follow up there, one is that there's an there's an assumption that are not an assumption mindset, I think that you're back to this idea of I forgot $100 to build my platform.

Jake McKee: And I mean all the content on, I mean the day to day, and I mean the staffing I just mean like.

Jake McKee: Technically, put a platform in place, I got 100 bucks to do it so i'm going to get as much functionality hundred bucks I can.

Jake McKee: And then i'll be done because, if not test it right it'll all work right if we you know Q amp a test it not usability tested then everything's going to work and it makes me fun.

Jake McKee: yeah but the reality is the reason I keep trying to pull that budget back to about $70 and keep the $30 in reserve, or whatever the number is you want to do right.

Jake McKee: Is because we always find those things you're talking about right that weird error that nobody could have foreseen.

Jake McKee: yeah the strange user behavior that nobody could have foreseen.

Jake McKee: You know you put stuff in front of users, especially Community users.

Jake McKee: they're going to come up with some weird use cases that you've never in a million years thought of and it's not your fault it's just reality right it's not a bad thing it's just how things work.

Jake McKee: And I think that's again, we can really look to our colleagues in e commerce say you know they know that.

Jake McKee: they're prepared for that they don't.

Jake McKee: Get upset when they've discovered when they get kind of excited celebrate that they found their don't have a problem, whether we can.

Chris Detzel: And then.

Chris Detzel: For next few weeks after you fix it.

Chris Detzel: They see that's what the issue was, I think, do that for the digital the main digital sites anyways like that they're trying to get leads and stuff like that.

Chris Detzel: didn't E commerce, but a company like ours, you know they spend a lot of time and effort and data collecting on you know why is you know to be like this chat used to create a bunch of leads.

Chris Detzel: For the last two months it hasn't created hardly any leads in comparison to the last you know and you're like okay let's go test that chess what what changed for two months ago this this and then they can go pinpoint exactly what that problem was you know I mean.

Chris Detzel: So maybe somebody moved the chat up to the top to the bottom, or to the side or.

Chris Detzel: Something happen, you know, and then I figured out, you know so.

Jake McKee: it's good point yeah well and yeah exactly and there's there's a i'll say a thing and then we can come back as a different topic to.

Jake McKee: dig in on the you know the the almost certain reaction of people listening in to say we're gonna say yeah but you know that's not possible for me, but bear with me.

Jake McKee: development process of moving that you know that hundred dollars back to $70 so you have 30 and reserved fix things that will naturally obviously come up.

Jake McKee: that's also important to do for us as as leaders.

Jake McKee: Because we know for a fact that we need to be.

Jake McKee: Excuse me dedicating more time.

Jake McKee: To stuff that is the random the administrative the data research all that stuff.

Jake McKee: But I don't know that we're as an industry that we generally put enough time into.

Jake McKee: And i'll give you an example.

Jake McKee: Or, more specific some background let's say sorry i've got the allergies sometime not to call friend, no.

Chris Detzel: worries.

Jake McKee: The when I first started business years ago.

Jake McKee: I read this really great motley fool article.

Jake McKee: That was talking about how you know when you as an entrepreneur it's the rule of thirds how you spend your time.

Jake McKee: A 30 year day goes doing the work 30 your day goes to finding the next bit of work and a 30 year day goes to all the administrative overhead that that work requires.

Jake McKee: And I remember at the time, this is like literally my first week of being a consultant right years ago.

Jake McKee: I remember just that blowing my mind going you mean i'm going to only get to spend a third of my time doing the cool stuff that I wanted to be.

Jake McKee: But it's true and it's you know, maybe the numbers aren't exactly right doesn't really matter, the point is it's three components right that all have to be making up your work day and you know to your point about like looking at the Google analytics right there's this there's this.

Jake McKee: reactive maybe you know proactive reactive split that you have your proactive activities that.

Jake McKee: You know, you need know you need to put forth the sort of dashboard you know you needed to get these sort of.

Jake McKee: Content pieces in place because somebody said, in the knowledge base these five things have to exist, you know you have to moderate, you know those are the proactive things you're you know about, but you also have to be setting aside time to to work, the business for yourself right.

Jake McKee: And figure out, you know how do I just go look at Google analytics with no particular point in mind, other than.

Jake McKee: That what's going on here right what am I noticing.

Jake McKee: And you know allow your your your creative brain to kind of take over and start seeing patterns paying attention to oddities that sort of stuff.

Jake McKee: yeah and you know there's kind of the the the proactive pieces driven by questions right i'm how are we going to do X, how are we going to get this result you know and how do you plan for that the reactive piece we don't put enough attention into.

Jake McKee: You know how do you have three hours a week set aside to make sure that you're looking at Google analytics.

Jake McKee: and making sure that that's all where it should be in there's no on.

Jake McKee: Yes, probably not because you're busy you don't have enough time because you have enough budget right because you all one guy and how do you protect that I didn't make that time for yourself the question.

Chris Detzel: yeah you know it's it's a tough one, because.

Jake McKee: You know I.

Chris Detzel: If I look at my own kind of career even into last year to this year with real to you know I feel like there's some really good things i've done.

Chris Detzel: In positive things, but because of some of those good things you know, not everybody wants a part of Community and which is good.

Chris Detzel: You know, but now you know i've got I kind of look at what is the next step, so the next step for me is is trying to get somebody else in here to really run the day to day type stuff so I can do.

Chris Detzel: More of those.

Chris Detzel: Strategic type of things, because you know when I have meetings on my goddamn calendar.

Chris Detzel: All day, every day, you know, like.

Chris Detzel: How can I even do any work of thinking about Community and everything else.

Chris Detzel: You know, you know, but some of the big things that those meetings some some of them are really important to kind of go back to your.

Chris Detzel: I don't know if it was.

Chris Detzel: If we talked about this, but we definitely talked about it before the show is kind of this, you know journey of where customer starts up for onboarding.

Chris Detzel: So when customer joins your organization, where is community in the conversation that's an important an extremely important piece right so.

Chris Detzel: Customer needs to know about Community the Academy, and some other places to go, so that they can get educated, so that they can get help.

Chris Detzel: And if we're not talking about those things, then they're not really ever going to know about it, I mean unless they stumble upon it on your website, or whatever right and so.

Chris Detzel: Those are the conversations I want to have and be in but sometimes it's hard to do that and then do the day to day and everything else, and you know so.

Chris Detzel: You know, I agree, I think you know I think as thirds the three things you talked about are good, but you know there's also more things in there when you're at when you're a one person team and, to some degree i've got a lot of.

Chris Detzel: People bought into it, which is a good problem to have but also, you have to kind of rain things in and say look i've got to do things on my Community you know, and that has to be a big part of my time.

Chris Detzel: And it's spending that time doing the shit that you just mentioned it's highly important so.

Jake McKee: Well, and and you, you nailed it right you, you have to make that you have to draw those boundaries right, you have to draw those push backs.

Jake McKee: Reality is as an entrepreneur, it is, it is hard to do okay how am I going to spend a third of my time actually doing the stuff that makes me the money.

Jake McKee: yeah right, but if I don't do the administrative stuff and pay my taxes.

Jake McKee: yeah that's a problem.

Jake McKee: If I don't look for the next business then i'm not ready, I have no pipeline when client a ends, I need client be to replace it right.

Jake McKee: yeah so you cannot get away from the reality that.

Jake McKee: Such as hard as that is.

Jake McKee: it's a reality, you can't fight so the question is how do I say you I mean all this.

Jake McKee: yeah so the The challenge here, this is what I was you know sort of prefacing before I even said it a minute ago was, I know that the young people listening are gonna be like yeah but I don't have any time for this.

Jake McKee: I don't even time for that kind of work, I all I can do is spend my day you'll Keep it up.

Jake McKee: Sure, and I understand it, and I absolutely sympathize with it, that the trick is, it is a reality if you want to grow, that has to have some time to be able to prove your growth and.

Jake McKee: That should allow you to draw your boundaries right.

Chris Detzel: And you have to start saying no on the beach.

Chris Detzel: You have to sometimes say no to.

Chris Detzel: it's going to look at what meetings are the most important to take.

Chris Detzel: Take those and then stop taking the others i've started doing that this year and it's somewhat free you know night like Oh, I have some time now to do this thing so maybe I could do this things.

Jake McKee: With jake right well.

Jake McKee: you're gonna say the last point i'll make it as we sum up here stop moderating on the beach.

Jake McKee: Because I know it's important I know we love our Community members, but this is caregiver syndrome right if you don't take care of yourself, you can't take care of anybody else worth a damn and you know when we say yes to moderating on the beach.

Jake McKee: Because there's nobody else there, the company doesn't have the ability to feel enough pain to say we need to solve this right, and you are not keeping your brain straight, so that you can come back to work after your vacation.

Jake McKee: Where you've actually set it aside actually allowed yourself to refresh and so you can be good to your Community members to your Community program to your to your teammates all that stuff right to stop moderating on the beach I need a T shirt for that.

Chris Detzel: Like in something I reminds me and i'll send some good to go, but I think it's important to to know that we're not doing this, just because we love it.

Chris Detzel: You know it's we've do love it, I think, but we are trying we're doing it for a business, so there has to be business outcomes to those communities.

Chris Detzel: And you really have to focus in on what those outcomes are for the business, so that you can grow your Community so that you get.

Chris Detzel: headcount so that you can get budget to do some of the things that you want to do, and all that kind of stuff you know, Nicole and i've talked about this before is you get approve it before you know you can do it, you know, or you need to prove it out.

Chris Detzel: And then you know it's chicken before the egg stuff so but you're also right you can't do everything so you also have to kind of be smart about your time and energy and where you're spending it, you know with your Community so.

Jake McKee: You keep saying yes they're going to keep accepting it.

Jake McKee: yeah I wouldn't know.

Jake McKee: right if you say no, I haven't.

Jake McKee: been there, I haven't in case there, this is not possible that way.

Jake McKee: Such if you want this outcome.

Jake McKee: and stop talking about Roi start talking about outcomes right.

Chris Detzel: Now.

Jake McKee: If you want this outcome this.

Chris Detzel: outcome do these things it's the yes, but.

Jake McKee: Yes, I can do it, but I can't do it alone.

Chris Detzel: right that could be a next thing what what is the business outcome look like.

Chris Detzel: I like it.

Chris Detzel: Well jake thanks so much for coming I really appreciate it, my name is Chris denzel and thanks for coming in another peers over beers and.

Jake McKee: yeah i'm Jacob ricky you can find out more about dinner five at dinner five.org or about me at jake bucky calm.

Chris Detzel: Thanks Jay.

Jake McKee: Thank you.